Does it really matter what people believe?

[Nimos]

I do not know what you expect to have as evidence. Maybe you are looking for a kind of evidence that simply does not exist.

You are also correct in saying that people “believe” these religious view are true, but does that mean they are true?

I look for evidence that are convincing. It's probably no different than you or any other religious person. You look at the Norse religion and for whatever reason you reach the conclusion that the evidence are not as convincing as you would like them.

That is correct, it does all boil down to which religion is right, but the Baha’i Faith is the only religion that can be right and still accommodate the fact that all religions are true, even though their messages and social teachings and laws are outdated.

That might be true don't know all religions, but regardless it doesn't say anything about whether its true or false.

I suppose that is a possibility that there is no God, because nobody can prove God exists like a fact, but what are the chances that 93% of the people in the world who believe in God are all wrong and only the 7% of atheists are right? I am not saying that just because many people believe in God, God must exist, because that would be committing the fallacy of argumentum ad populum, but when it comes to something as important as God, I think it is wise to ask why so many people would believe in a God that does not exist. Moreover, since God is related to the purpose of our existence, it is very important to know of God exists and what God’s will is for us. This is simply logical.

Without evidence the chances are quite big

Remember that people thought Earth was the centre of the universe or the solar system once.

And the question why so many people believe in God is being asked a lot to be honest, especially by atheists. But without convincing evidence, we don't really get closer to an answer.

And that does not worry you that you could be wrong about something as important as God?

Honestly not the slightest, because again I don't know which God to bet on anyway. And if God is as uninterested in letting us know as he appears to be, then I don't really care. If God exists, ill have to deal with it when it gets to that point, because he have given me nothing to work with here. I have already told you that, I don't care about free will in regards to this, so God have all possibilities and my blessing to convince me if he want.

Honestly looking at how some religious people live their lives, that would worry me a whole lot more, having to live day in and out praying or worshipping a God for which there are no good evidence.

The Bab wrote that we are supposed to worship God for His sake, not to get to heaven, but that is kind of misleading because it is really for our sake that we worship God since God does not need anything from us, because God has no needs. So then we have to ask why it is good for us to worship God, and when you find the answer Nimos, please let me know!

I think we already talked about this before. If I end up the exact same place as you, with exactly the same benefits, then there is no need for you to be a Bahai, and not worry about God or religion and whether you are a good enough Bahai, because it doesn't matter anyway.

Okay, so God sent Messengers to guide us to the straight path, that is one thing God does, but how hard is that for an Omnipotent God?

Following what I asked above, what is that path and why is it needed? Because the only reason I can think of by saying that, is simply another way of hinting that Bahai are slightly "better" people than everyone else. Which is nothing new when it comes to religions. "Your not a Christian? Go to hell". So what is meant by or is the benefit of the straight path?

Maybe I take that too literally, but He should not have written it if he did not intend for us to take it seriously.

But then we also have passages like the one below. Baha’u’llah is telling us to enjoy the good things in the world bit then He says that whatsoever deters is from loving God is nothing but the world. Do you see the contradiction? The other Baha’is don’t like it when I point this out because of course most people like to enjoy themselves.

I understand you can get upset by these things and the contradictions. I really do. But for me, its more or less just word salad. Because if Baha'u'llah was still alive and I was chatting with him. I wouldn't care about this, I would constantly pressure him to demonstrate that he was a messenger of God, that is the only thing that would interest me. When he had done that, fine, then we could talk about what else he had to say.

The first commandment: “Our God, The Lord is One; Thou shalt love thy Lord, thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” Obviously you cannot do that if you do not believe that God exists, but I believe God exists and I cannot do it either, just because it is written on the pages of a book. I have to know why I am doing something in order to do it, there has to be a reason that makes sense.

Completely agree.

Get real. Christians cannot be right if God is just and good, and if God is not just and good why would anyone even want to believe in God? I say they cannot be right because NO just God who is good would exclude 71% of the human population from heaven, paradise, or whatever you want to call it, including the 24% of people who are Muslims and the 15% of people who are Hindus.

Well that is where forgiveness enters the picture

"Ahh... I might have done something bad, I definitely wont get to heaven now.... ohh wait.. forgive me for I have sinned!! Bingo!! "

So there is always a chance isn't there? Maybe God did forgive my sins if I really tried to do better... this time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Because if Baha'u'llah was still alive and I was chatting with him. I wouldn't care about this, I would constantly pressure him to demonstrate that he was a messenger of God, that is the only thing that would interest me. When he had done that, fine, then we could talk about what else he had to say.

^^^
I would ask him to demonstrate that if I use his snake-oil, mine would be thicker and longer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I look for evidence that are convincing. It's probably no different than you or any other religious person. You look at the Norse religion and for whatever reason you reach the conclusion that the evidence are not as convincing as you would like them.

What evidence is convincing to one person will not necessarily be convincing to another. When people say there is no evidence for Baha’u’llah being a Messenger of God but all they are really saying is that there is no evidence that convinces them.

That might be true don't know all religions, but regardless it doesn't say anything about whether its true or false.

I agree, so how do you think we can know if it is true or false, or do you think that is impossible to know?

Without evidence the chances are quite big.

So you think that the chances are really big that God does not exist because of the lack of evidence? I am really sorry Nimos but evidence is not what makes God exist. God either exists or not and even if there was no evidence at all God would still exist if God exists. I eman if Gdo provided no evidence there would be no evidence and in that case we would have nothing to base our belief upon, but God dis provide evidence when he sent Messengers. It is unfortunate that athesits do not LIKE the only evidence God provides, but there is nothing they can do about that except continue to be atheists.

And the question why so many people believe in God is being asked a lot to be honest, especially by atheists. But without convincing evidence, we don't really get closer to an answer.

If I have asked atheists once I have asked them a hundred times what would constitute evidence for them, but the only answers I have gotten are really would not prove God exists so you are in between a rock and a hard place because the only reasonable way that God could prove He exists is by sending a Messenger who speaks on God’s behalf. Since we are also human that is the only way God can communicate to us, via a human who has the capability is understanding God.

Honestly not the slightest, because again I don't know which God to bet on anyway. And if God is as uninterested in letting us know as he appears to be, then I don't really care. If God exists, ill have to deal with it when it gets to that point, because he have given me nothing to work with here. I have already told you that, I don't care about free will in regards to this, so God have all possibilities and my blessing to convince me if he want.

There is only one God, why would we need more than one God? God has given you something, it is just not good enough for you, so you will have to wait till you die unless you change your mind before that.

Honestly looking at how some religious people live their lives, that would worry me a whole lot more, having to live day in and out praying or worshipping a God for which there are no good evidence.

But there IS good evidence for those of us who believe that God exists as otherwise we would not pray and worship.

I think we already talked about this before. If I end up the exact same place as you, with exactly the same benefits, then there is no need for you to be a Bahai, and not worry about God or religion and whether you are a good enough Bahai, because it doesn't matter anyway.

The spiritual world is not a place; it is just another dimension, an extension of this world. I do not know where I will end up after I die but at least I will know I followed what God wanted me to do to the best of my ability. I do not believe that theists will have the same advantage as believers if scriptures are true, but there is no way to know what their destiny will be and I think it will vary according to the reasons why they failed to believe in God and the Messenger.

Following what I asked above, what is that path and why is it needed? Because the only reason I can think of by saying that, is simply another way of hinting that Bahai are slightly "better" people than everyone else. Which is nothing new when it comes to religions. "Your not a Christian? Go to hell". So what is meant by or is the benefit of the straight path?

No, saying that there is a straight path that God wants us to take is not saying Baha’is are better than anyone else because that straight path is the same in all the great religions.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

I understand you can get upset by these things and the contradictions. I really do. But for me, its more or less just word salad. Because if Baha'u'llah was still alive and I was chatting with him. I wouldn't care about this, I would constantly pressure him to demonstrate that he was a messenger of God, that is the only thing that would interest me. When he had done that, fine, then we could talk about what else he had to say.

I understand that you would first need to believe that He was a Messenger of God before you would care what he wrote, but I already believe he is a Messenger of God so I want to understand what he means by what He wrote, because I am trying to follow His teachings.

 

[Nimos]

I agree, so how do you think we can know if it is true or false, or do you think that is impossible to know?

I think the key to this question is God to be honest. As far as I have seen, it doesn't seem like the proves are coming from humans and their writings. But if God exist he could easily prove it.

But ignoring proof, I don't even think humans come as far as to making a convincing case for God.

So you think that the chances are really big that God does not exist because of the lack of evidence? I am really sorry Nimos but evidence is not what makes God exist. God either exists or not and even if there was no evidence at all God would still exist if God exists. I eman if Gdo provided no evidence there would be no evidence and in that case we would have nothing to base our belief upon, but God dis provide evidence when he sent Messengers. It is unfortunate that athesits do not LIKE the only evidence God provides, but there is nothing they can do about that except continue to be atheists.

But as with anything else, to even get to the place where we can talk about whether or not something exist or whether we should believe it or not, requires that we have something to work with. And the problem is that we only have human testimonies for this claim, and even looking at them, we see that there are huge differences between them about what God is and isn't, what he wants from us, his messages etc. Which simply make the testimonies a rather weak piece of evidence.

The type of evidence you are working with is basically me telling you that "A giant smurf exist and is the creator of the universe" and you can either believe me or not.
And if you argue against it, I simply tell you, that "evidence is not what makes the smurf exist, it either does or it doesn't" you can't argue against it and it will bring you back to whether or not you believe my testimony about it in the first place.

From a logical point of view, if such argument is good enough for you in regards to God, then it ought to be good enough for me in regards to the smurf, because they are identical.

The way this whole setup is made, is that you can't argue against it. Because whatever you come up with, the answer can always be "Well if God doesn't want it then it won't happen or you wouldn't know" there is no way around it. And when an argument is designed in such way, it seems like something is not really as solid as people want it to sound. So i become very sceptical about it, because it then solely becomes a matter of whether or not, I accept what these people tell me or I don't. And if at the same time, they dismiss my smurf, but withhold their own God, playing by the same rules, then I just don't buy their argument. So more is required, both from me to convince you that the smurf exist, and more is required from you to convince me that God does.

But then we are back to the start, because where do we get those new arguments? We still only have human testimonies, whether they are in form of scriptures or from Baha'u'llah, doesn't really change anything.

And I think you would agree with my argumentation, if it was not about God. Because if I make an argument like this:

"The reason A exist is because we can touch it"

"Well in that case B must exist, because we can touch it as well, right?"

"No, it is only true for A"

That would be a false way of arguing right? The rules changes from A to B in regards to how we determine if something exist or not. So clearly my argument in regards to existence must be wrong, if it only apply to what im saying and not you, despite you using the exact same rules.

So in the end, you would be in your good right, to ask me to demonstrate it. And in the case I can't then why should you assume that im telling the truth, when I make a clear incoherent argument and at the same time fail to demonstrate it?

If I have asked atheists once I have asked them a hundred times what would constitute evidence for them, but the only answers I have gotten are really would not prove God exists so you are in between a rock and a hard place because the only reasonable way that God could prove He exists is by sending a Messenger who speaks on God’s behalf. Since we are also human that is the only way God can communicate to us, via a human who has the capability is understanding God.

Why would that be the case? God can do anything, also lots of scriptures tell us, that God is fully capable of communicating with humans. So fair enough, if we assume that all of that is wrong, but then we might as well throw all the scriptures in the garbage bin, because they would be completely nonsense from start to finish, because God speaks a lot in them. And if we throw them out, then we can throw out Baha'u'llahs writings as well, because their foundation is grounded in these scriptures. Without them, he would have nothing.

There is only one God, why would we need more than one God? God has given you something, it is just not good enough for you, so you will have to wait till you die unless you change your mind before that.

I have no evidence that God have given me anything, I have no evidence that God have given anyone anything. And how do you know there is only one God? In the past, everyone knew there were more gods?

But there IS good evidence for those of us who believe that God exists as otherwise we would not pray and worship.

And that is fine, but it has still not been established that God exist in the first place. If you are already convinced of it, that is fine. But to me and all atheists I guess, we think that religious people, have skipped or failed to prove this very first step.

The evidence you find convincing, are simply not meeting the standard that atheists need to draw such conclusion.

The spiritual world is not a place; it is just another dimension, an extension of this world.

How do you know? There have been no demonstration of this and it is statements like these, that make sure that atheists stay that way

We are not being unfair here, but you make a claim as if it is a fact. And we simply ask, how do you know? And time after time, religious people will answer: "Well in the bible..." or "Baha'u'llah said...", and that is all fine, but that doesn't demonstrate it. We are not asking for the source of the claim, but a demonstration. Exactly as you would, if a Christian said that "Jesus rose from the dead, therefore he is the son of God...", (if you don't believe in that). You know it is from the bible, it is not what you are asking for, you want to know how they know!!

And if they can't demonstrate how that is possible, then why should you believe them?

No, saying that there is a straight path that God wants us to take is not saying Baha’is are better than anyone else because that straight path is the same in all the great religions.

But I think people should work together and be tolerant and care for each other, I don't need Baha'u'llah or God to tell me that, I have believed that long before I even heard about Baha'u'llah, so why do religious people need to be told that?

 

[CG Didymus]

But as with anything else, to even get to the place where we can talk about whether or not something exist or whether we should believe it or not, requires that we have something to work with. And the problem is that we only have human testimonies for this claim, and even looking at them, we see that there are huge differences between them about what God is and isn't, what he wants from us, his messages etc. Which simply make the testimonies a rather weak piece of evidence.

The type of evidence you are working with is basically me telling you that "A giant smurf exist and is the creator of the universe" and you can either believe me or not.
And if you argue against it, I simply tell you, that "evidence is not what makes the smurf exist, it either does or it doesn't" you can't argue against it and it will bring you back to whether or not you believe my testimony about it in the first place.

God can do anything, also lots of scriptures tell us, that God is fully capable of communicating with humans.

Yes, we have human testimony and scriptures that tell of all the wondrous things that the God of Israel has done, and also all the wondrous things that all the different Gods of all the different religions have done. But, even for Baha'is, all of that is false. God did not create the world in six days and do all the other things the Bible says he did. Same with the "proofs" and testimonies of the other religions. When it all comes down to it, the Baha'is are saying that the messengers are proof. Which comes down to it even more... it means that their messenger is the proof.