Does it really matter what people believe?

[InvestigateTruth]

I wonder about this a lot. If people lead a good life and follow what Jesus taught, does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or in God?

As a Baha’i, I believe it matters if people recognize Baha’u’llah, because otherwise Baha’u’llah would not have enjoined us to proclaim that He has come, but why does it matter if people recognize Him, as long as they lead a moral life and follow His teachings? What’s the big deal if they do not follow the Baha’i laws? If they are living by the teachings as I see most people on this forum are doing, why does it matter what they believe? Why does it matter if they adhere to another religion or no religion at all? Why does it matter if they believe in God? What difference is it going to make what religion they adhere to or if they adhere to any religion at all or believe in God?

I once posted this on a Baha’i forum and no Baha’is were able to answer my question, so that is one reason why I am posting it here. If Baha’is believe it matters so much that people of other religions or no religion become Baha’is, I want to know why they think it matters.

Of course I also want to know if other people think it matters what people believe. For example, if Christians believe it matters that people believe in Jesus, why does it matter?

I have my own ideas why I think it matters what people believe. I believe it matters that people know what reality is, the purpose for which they were created and where they will spend eternity.

Do you think it matters if people know what reality is, the purpose for their existence and what will happen after they die?

If there is no afterlife, I do not think it matters that much what people believe as long as they follow the teachings of Jesus and live a good life, caring about other people and all living creatures and the environment. But will it matter what they believed in this life if there is an afterlife? That is the hundred-dollar question. I am sure some people will disagree, but I do not think this question is answered definitively in any scriptures.

In the Writings of Baha’u’llah we are told the destiny of a believer, but He does not specify what religion they believed in, and it leaves the destiny of everyone else wide open.

“They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe...” Gleanings, p. 171

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings, p. 345

Part of the practice is, praying fasting, and reading the scriptures. If one does not believe in the scriptures, why or how can he pray, fast for example?
These practices, have an affect on our spiritual growth according to scriptures.
Serving humanity, requires person to also develop his spiritually. How can we know how to serve humanity? Scriptures tell us, what is a service to humanity. So, if we don't believe in the Manifestation of our time, we would miss a lot.

 

[Trailblazer]

Serving humanity, requires person to also develop his spiritually. How can we know how to serve humanity? Scriptures tell us, what is a service to humanity. So, if we don't believe in the Manifestation of our time, we would miss a lot.

That's true from a Baha'i perspective, since we believe that Baha'u'llah was the Manifestation if God for our time, and that what He wrote constitute Scriptures.

But since only about 0.12% of the world population believes that......

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, sorry.

I assume by good life, you mean what we think is a good life. It may be a good life to us, but is what is a good life to us, the same as what is a good life to God?

Since then, God sets the standard of what is good, then it does matters... It matters to God, and to those serving God.

I do not think that what people consider good is necessarily good for those people, but rather that God sets the standard of what is good for humans, since God created humans. Also, it is only logical, if God exists and is All-Knowing and All-Wise and Infallible, that God would know what is best for humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

So as I practice the standing meditation, I bring focus to the heart center, and collect the energy there. I believe I can understand what these Christian mystics of the past meant, as well as the Sufis. It has the effect of making you very open, aware, calm, and grounded, connected with everything that arises.

I'm wondering, from what you have read, does your teachings specify anything about any "heart practices"? Does it speak of any practices the follower may do?

The Baha'i Faith does not have any specific practices that we have to adhere to. Below is what I found on a Baha'i blog that summarizes the Bahai viewpoint on meditation and cites some authoritative Baha'i sources:.

But what exactly is meditation?

Abdu’l-Baha expounds:

It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and reality is revealed.4

Shoghi Effendi says that “…there are no set forms of meditation prescribed in the teachings”, and that the manner in which we meditate, “is left entirely to the individual”.5

Moreover, he says,

…it would be wiser for the Baha’is to use the meditations given by Baha’u’llah, and not any set forms of meditation recommended by someone else; but the believers must be left free in these details and allowed to have the personal latitude in finding their own level of communion with God.6

https://www.bahaiblog.net/2015/05/l...-reflection-on-meditation-in-the-bahai-faith/

 

[syo]

You're in Greece, right? I didn't realize it was that bad. I know that the Greek government and Orthodox Church are in bed with each other, but that's sad. I thought that Pagans were a recognized religious minority there now?

After struggling with the law. It is still not safe to say Zeus or Athene are real gods and one can believe in them too. The system here wants to monopolize deity, that Zeus is a fake and the devil while jesus is the only god. But pagans here accept all kinds of pagans and all people. A pagan omnist like me doesn't bother other pagans.

 

[Audie]

I said "lead a good life and follow what Jesus taught" but that was very general.

No, I did not say it does not matter. I asked whether other people think it matters:

Does it really matter what people believe?

I wonder about this a lot. If people lead a good life and follow what Jesus taught, does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or in God?

I had my own ideas about why it matters but I was thinking about the individual more than about society.
Thinking about society as a whole, I would say that it matters very much what people believe.

I do not think that "a good life" has anything to do with what feels good or what is groovy.

I fully agree, and that is a good example of how individuals can affect a whole society.

When you have a country like the United States wherein about 40% of its people believe that Jesus is going to return and magically fix everything that is wrong in this world, any logical person cannot fail to see how that would affect their behavior. I mean why even bother to try to address the world's problems, if Jesus is coming and He will fix them for us?

Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth

"By the year 2050, 41% of Americans believe that Jesus Christ definitely (23%) or probably (18%) will have returned to earth."

"One-in-five religiously unaffiliated Americans also see Christ returning during the next four decades."

All I can say is, God help us all. I consider this the most dangerous belief that people hold.

Not only that, it is a belief predicted on nothing, since Jesus never said He would return to earth and in fact He said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Jesus never promised to return to earth, never. It is not in the NT, period. Why then do so many Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth?

Why do 20% of religiously unaffiliated Americans believe that Jesus will return during the next four decades? Think about it.

This is a nice answer and I won't dispute any of it.
Probably " jesus" is a composite figure onto whom are projected ideas from many sources, as is so common in mythology.

But generally, folk wisdom is some of the best.

On arriving in the USA I was so surprised, with Christians trying to save me, to find them making a big religious deal of values we are taught at home as just part of life.

Nothing personal here, I see you as much a victim of religious nonsense as any other,
and I feel some compassion for your plight,
stuck as you are as in flypaper.

But sure, try to follow Jesus and no complaints,
I wish a few more did. Maybe try not to be tiresome about it though?

 

[Milton Platt]

I wonder about this a lot. If people lead a good life and follow what Jesus taught, does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or in God?

As a Baha’i, I believe it matters if people recognize Baha’u’llah, because otherwise Baha’u’llah would not have enjoined us to proclaim that He has come, but why does it matter if people recognize Him, as long as they lead a moral life and follow His teachings? What’s the big deal if they do not follow the Baha’i laws? If they are living by the teachings as I see most people on this forum are doing, why does it matter what they believe? Why does it matter if they adhere to another religion or no religion at all? Why does it matter if they believe in God? What difference is it going to make what religion they adhere to or if they adhere to any religion at all or believe in God?

I once posted this on a Baha’i forum and no Baha’is were able to answer my question, so that is one reason why I am posting it here. If Baha’is believe it matters so much that people of other religions or no religion become Baha’is, I want to know why they think it matters.

Of course I also want to know if other people think it matters what people believe. For example, if Christians believe it matters that people believe in Jesus, why does it matter?

I have my own ideas why I think it matters what people believe. I believe it matters that people know what reality is, the purpose for which they were created and where they will spend eternity.

Do you think it matters if people know what reality is, the purpose for their existence and what will happen after they die?

If there is no afterlife, I do not think it matters that much what people believe as long as they follow the teachings of Jesus and live a good life, caring about other people and all living creatures and the environment. But will it matter what they believed in this life if there is an afterlife? That is the hundred-dollar question. I am sure some people will disagree, but I do not think this question is answered definitively in any scriptures.

In the Writings of Baha’u’llah we are told the destiny of a believer, but He does not specify what religion they believed in, and it leaves the destiny of everyone else wide open.

“They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe...” Gleanings, p. 171

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings, p. 345

You might have an argument if 1) we could be sure we actually know what Jesus said, and not what some one else says he said and (2 everything Jesus is purported to have said is actually good advice.

 

[Milton Platt]

I wonder about this a lot. If people lead a good life and follow what Jesus taught, does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or in God?

As a Baha’i, I believe it matters if people recognize Baha’u’llah, because otherwise Baha’u’llah would not have enjoined us to proclaim that He has come, but why does it matter if people recognize Him, as long as they lead a moral life and follow His teachings? What’s the big deal if they do not follow the Baha’i laws? If they are living by the teachings as I see most people on this forum are doing, why does it matter what they believe? Why does it matter if they adhere to another religion or no religion at all? Why does it matter if they believe in God? What difference is it going to make what religion they adhere to or if they adhere to any religion at all or believe in God?

I once posted this on a Baha’i forum and no Baha’is were able to answer my question, so that is one reason why I am posting it here. If Baha’is believe it matters so much that people of other religions or no religion become Baha’is, I want to know why they think it matters.

Of course I also want to know if other people think it matters what people believe. For example, if Christians believe it matters that people believe in Jesus, why does it matter?

I have my own ideas why I think it matters what people believe. I believe it matters that people know what reality is, the purpose for which they were created and where they will spend eternity.

Do you think it matters if people know what reality is, the purpose for their existence and what will happen after they die?

If there is no afterlife, I do not think it matters that much what people believe as long as they follow the teachings of Jesus and live a good life, caring about other people and all living creatures and the environment. But will it matter what they believed in this life if there is an afterlife? That is the hundred-dollar question. I am sure some people will disagree, but I do not think this question is answered definitively in any scriptures.

In the Writings of Baha’u’llah we are told the destiny of a believer, but He does not specify what religion they believed in, and it leaves the destiny of everyone else wide open.

“They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe...” Gleanings, p. 171

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings, p. 345

It very much matters in many cases, as beliefs inform actions. Do I care if someone believes Brussel's sprouts taste good? No. do I care if someone believes anyone who doesn't believe in their particular god should be killed? Yes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I concluded with two very short quotes from Baha'u'llah that represent what I believe about the destiny of a believer in the afterlife because I needed those in order to make my point. I cut off all of the rest of what Baha'u'llah said about the afterlife in those long Tablets.

I go by what Baha'u'llah concluded in one of His longer Tablets:
“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

Yeah, you have conditioned yourself well. That is what the Iranian preacher wanted. You do not make any point unless you give evidence for after-life. Thanks for not quoting the whole tablet. With the penchant of the translator to make the writing look like from the days of Noah with deserveth, wanteth, writeth, I do not know if anyone reads that. Thanks again for not quoting the whole tablet in this post.

 

[Aupmanyav]

70 million people in the United States "believe" in President Trump, so what does that prove?

Yeah, that you believe in that Iranian preacher does not prove anything, not even his supposed 'divine' mission.

 

[Trailblazer]

But sure, try to follow Jesus and no complaints,
I wish a few more did. Maybe try not to be tiresome about it though?

I do not follow Jesus, I follow Baha'u'llah, but for non-religious people I am sure there is no difference.

However, for me and other Baha'is, the difference is that Baha'u'llah brought the remedy humanity needs in this new age.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

After struggling with the law. It is still not safe to say Zeus or Athene are real gods and one can believe in them too. The system here wants to monopolize deity, that Zeus is a fake and the devil while jesus is the only god. But pagans here accept all kinds of pagans and all people. A pagan omnist like me doesn't bother other pagans.

I'm sad to hear that. Stay strong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, you have conditioned yourself well. That is what the Iranian preacher wanted. You do not make any point unless you give evidence for after-life. Thanks for not quoting the whole tablet. With the penchant of the translator to make the writing look like from the days of Noah with deserveth, wanteth, writeth, I do not know if anyone reads that. Thanks again for not quoting the whole tablet in this post.

I did not condition myself and that is not what Baha'u'llah meant. That was the last sentence in a longer tablet that explains why our faith should not be conditioned by anyone except ourselves, so it does it really make that much sense taken out of context. What He meant is that our beliefs should not be based upon what other people believe, they should be what we determine for ourselves alone by doing our own individual; investigation because we are all responsible for our own beliefs when God calls us to account at the end of this life.

There is no proof but there is evidence for the afterlife, aside from what Baha'u'llah wrote, but you would say it is not evidence so I would not bother posting it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, that you believe in that Iranian preacher does not prove anything, not even his supposed 'divine' mission.

Obviously not, because beliefs do not determine reality. Reality simply exists and we either discover it or fail to do so.

 

[Trailblazer]

You might have an argument if 1) we could be sure we actually know what Jesus said, and not what some one else says he said and (2 everything Jesus is purported to have said is actually good advice.

As usual, you raise some good points and I fully agree...

Nice to see you again Milton, one of my favorite atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

It very much matters in many cases, as beliefs inform actions. Do I care if someone believes Brussel's sprouts taste good? No. do I care if someone believes anyone who doesn't believe in their particular god should be killed? Yes.

Another good point. I was approaching this from the stance of whether it matters to an individual what he believes, but since humans are social creatures we also have to consider how our beliefs might affect others, to their benefit or detriment.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi Trailblazer

Hope everything is fine in the US, with the election and the covid out of control?

Hi Nimos, my favorite atheist. It is always good to see you.

No, it is not fine. I am very happy that Biden won but this is going to drag on until he takes office. Covid will also drag on. Neither one is going to affect my life much because it is determined by other factors, but I care about other people so I would like to see things change for the better. If I cared about money I would be jumping for joy owing to the stock market increases given all I have invested, but having even more money is not going to help my life situation so it makes no difference. My life is what it is and my ability to change it is very limited. I thought about starting a thread on free will after our last discussion on fate but I can only start one thread at a time, owing to time limitations.

It depends what you believe in. The Bahai view might be more generous than some of the other religions.

But each religion have their sources for how they work and in many of them it is simply stated that if you do not live according to what God say, then you are not considered a follower of him and then you will get punished or not receive the benefits, which in most cases are the promise of a better life.

And since we have no others sources than these, meaning we don't have a new Jesus in many of these religions, like Islam and Christianity, there isn't a new Jesus, so the only source we can lean on are the old religious texts. The Bahai believe they have Baha'u'llah, but he is not accepted as a messenger by the other religions.

So since we only have these sources and they do not say that everyone is saved, then one have to decide whether God meant it back in the days, or whether he didn't. The issue is, that if person hold the view that everyone that are good gets saved, then they have nothing to backup such claim with, as the only sources, the scriptures simply doesn't support it.

Therefore, at least to me, it solely becomes a matter of whether or not we can trust the scriptures. So for an atheist it, we don't find enough evidence in these to accept the conclusion. But it is evenly important for the believers that do not follow every single rule in it, and that for instance think that their atheist parents are saved or those of their friends of different religions are. Because if the scriptures are true, in the major religions (Christianity/Islam), then they won't be. There are simply nothing in them that suggest that people of wrong beliefs or lack thereof, will be.

Just because Baha'u'llah is not accepted as a Messenger by the other religions that does not mean He was not a Messenger, since what people believe does not determine reality. But I understand what you mean; you are more inclined to believe the older more established religions. I see it the opposite way because I believe that those scriptures were written for another age, an age that is long gone, so they do not apply to humanity in this age. Nevertheless, some things do not change over time, so it has always been in our best interest to believe in God and be close to God because that is what gets us nearer to heaven. I believe in God even though I am not close to God, so at least I will have some advantage. Hopefully, God will forgive me for questioning His goodness owing to all the suffering I see in this world. I cannot believe in something that makes no sense to me just because it is written in scriptures.

Baha’is do not believe in saved vs. unsaved since we do not believe in original sin, so where we end up on the afterlife (which is a misnomer since the spiritual world is simply a continuation of this life), is all about knowing and loving God. I believe I know as much as I can know about God, which isn’t much, but it is all we are allowed to know. Loving God is another matter, as I have to have a reason to love. I fully know what Christians and Muslims and even Baha’is believe about God being so great, but that does not help me because I was not raised that way. I am not a religious person by most standards, I just believe Baha’u’llah was who he claimed to be because of the evidence that is clear to me, even though it is not recognized by most people.

For Christians it would matter, because God/Jesus told them to spread Christianity and because again, it's how people are saved. The ultimate goal for God, is not to take care of people here on Earth or be especially worried about what happens to them. The only thing that matters really is for people to accept Jesus as the savior so you can be saved (depending on who you believe). Or if we are to believe Matthew and the OT, then Jesus and God say we have to do the will of God, meaning follow the law.

Yes, salvation and getting to heaven (or being raised from the dead and living forever in paradise on earth, depending upon the beliefs) is what is most important to Christians but it is more than that. Christians also believe that God and Jesus are “there for them” guiding their way in life. I do not believe that the same way Christians do, because I do not see God as up close and personal they way they do. I believe God guides us in some way if we are open to being guided but I do not believe that God is “always there” the way Christians believe.

Yes, it matters a lot.

Because you might live and do things based on whether or not there is an afterlife for instance. You might treat others differently, if they don't agree with your views of reality.

Yes, I agree. It matters what we believe about the purpose of our existence because that will determine our behavior. If I did not believe in God and my religion for example, I could just as easily take all my money and go somewhere nice and live a happy life, but I can’t because I don’t believe that enjoying this life is really that important.

If you are referring to atheists? then we do not follow the teachings of Jesus, the majority, if not all, probably hold some sort of humanistic view as their guideline for whether one should do A or B, which is based on evaluating each option for what we believe will be best. Which is why atheists might have vastly different views on whether or not abortion for instance is ok or not. But one thing we have in common is that we do not look to religious text to tell us whether we should think one option is better than the other.

I understand that “live a good life” is far too general and open-ended. When I said that I meant the second commandment, as noted below. I did not mean following all the laws in the Bible.

The Great Commandment (or Greatest Commandment)[1] is a name used in the New Testament to describe the first of two commandments cited by Jesus in Matthew 22:35–40, Mark 12:28–34, and Luke 10:27a.

In Mark, when asked "which is the great commandment in the law?", the Greek New Testament reports that Jesus answered, "Hear, O Israel! The Lord Our God, The Lord is One; Thou shalt love thy Lord, thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind",[2] before also referring to a second commandment, "And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."[3] Most Christian denominations consider these two commandments to be the core of correct Christian lifestyle.[4]

Great Commandment - Wikipedia

I think it is very clearly answered in most. If you take Christianity for instance, if you are not saved, you either won't be anymore or you will end up in eternal hell.

So clearly it doesn't matter what you do in this life, if you are of the wrong believe. And it is no different for me as an atheist, a muslim or you as a Bahai, if Christianity is true, then we will end up the same place.

It is not that clear in the Baha’i Faith, as I said. For one thing, we do not believe in hell as a geographical location, as a place we go for eternity. We believe that hell is distance from God, which is a state of the soul, and heaven is nearness to God. It is not based upon beliefs except to the extent that we believe that the way we can be close to God is through Baha’u’llah, just as Christians believe that Jesus is how they get close to God. I know I felt closer to God when I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and said prayers, but I have a resistance and maybe you could even say I have a disinterest in myself being close to God, although I care very much about other people.

As mentioned above, even for Christians this is the case, if the only way to be saved is by doing the will of God, follow the law, then the majority of Christians are not going to be saved either. If Paul was right (Which most Christians believe) and you just have to accept Jesus as you saviour, then a lot of people will be saved. Doesn't matter if you are Hitler or a mass murderer, if you accept Jesus before you die, you will be saved according to that. Probably some will disagree, but it is what the bible say, no other rules are given in regards to being saved.

I believe it is important to do the will of God and follow the law, but being saved just by accepting Jesus as savior is hogwash. I believe that Paul and the Church changed the original teachings of Jesus and made them into something else, but it was so cleverly that nobody noticed. Now, the gospels and the epistles of Paul all run together and it is just a big confusing mess, which explains why Christians have so many different beliefs thye cannot agree upon.

So again, you have conflicting rules even for Christians in how one is actually saved.

That is for sure, as I just said. Nobody really knows because the scriptures themselves are contradictory.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no proof but there is evidence for the afterlife, aside from what Baha'u'llah wrote, but you would say it is not evidence so I would not bother posting it.

Yeah, if the proof you present is as vacuous as Bahaollah's words, then it is hardly a proof of anything at all, not even of existence of Allah.

.. because beliefs do not determine reality.

That is a nice line to be remembered. Beliefs should be checked with evidence available and should be limited to it. We should not go on a hyperbole with our beliefs and imagine silly things. Science does that. Wish, religions also did that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, if the proof you present is as vacuous as Bahaollah's words, then it is hardly a proof of anything at all, not even of existence of Allah.That is a nice line to be remembered.

Baha'u'llah did not want us to have unequivocal proof of God or of the afterlife, but rather faith that they exist.

Beliefs should be checked with evidence available and should be limited to it. We should not go on a hyperbole with our beliefs and imagine silly things. Science does that. Wish, religions also did that.

My beliefs have been checked with all the evidence that is available but I do not want to beat that dead horse.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do not think that was a teaching of Jesus.

Jesus doesn't agree with the bible?