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Does Karma Exist
- Thread starter Draupadi
- Start date
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oy vey...
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Hehe. I'm not the one telling people they are in bondage, babe.
factseeker88
factseeker88
Physical reality is the only real world reality we have. Everything else is an allusion --- thoughts, beliefs, understandings, theories, planning, conclusions, fears, loves, hates, life, death, importance, anticipation, needs -- are all illusions
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"Our belief or disbelief[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of a thing does not alter the nature[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of things Tillotson[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This moment is your life. Omar Khayyam [/FONT]
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Um, ok, have it your way. I wouldn't want to live in a society that supported this viewpoint.
Well, we agree on something, at least. Things are looking up.
Why though? Should we erase our laws and leave everything up to so-called karma? Seriously, if karma is a valid force why on earth would we need to hold anyone accountable for anything?
There is an old saying, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Of course motive matters, but motives do not necessarily erase actions. For example, when dealing with small children, they will often have the best intentions but their actions will often have quite unexpected (to them) consequences. Of course, we will look at a child and say, "Ok, Rita, that wasn't the best way to go about that but your heart was in the right place." That said, Rita still gets a punishment of some kind to reinforce the error in her execution/actions. We are not punishing her motive.
Even in the case of Mother A. If she had asked the people at the church for some wood, she probably would have been given some. If no one was around to ask, she could have left a note explaining her need and promising to make restitution would have gone a lot further than her lame little prayer. I hope this makes some semblance of sense.
Yes good sir =) It makes sense ^.^ Ultimately I should have used a different example >.<
factseeker88
factseeker88
if karma is a valid force why on earth would we need to hold anyone accountable for anything?
No belief is a natural force, only another illusion.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"Our belief or disbelief[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of a thing does not alter the nature[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of things” Tillotson[/FONT]
“[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This moment is your life.” Omar Khayyam [/FONT]
No belief is a natural force, only another illusion.
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"Our belief or disbelief[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of a thing does not alter the nature[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of things” Tillotson[/FONT]
“[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This moment is your life.” Omar Khayyam [/FONT]
We don't need to. Accountability is a free will thing.
factseeker88
factseeker88
Accountability could lead to something physical, if so, that would make it naturally real in this cause and effect world.
:yes::yes::yes:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"Our belief or disbelief[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of a thing does not alter the nature[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]of things Tillotson[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This moment is your life. Omar Khayyam [/FONT]
To me, intent (motive) is a key consideration. The law has a limited view of intent, typically reserving it for what crime a person is charged with when someone dies. In any event, a crime has been committed but the punishment is different depending on intent. There is even a category called "justifiable homicide" when someone is killed to prevent an innocent person from being killed.
There are endless examples of what to me are justifiable crimes or at least crimes where motive is critical. Let's say I'm driving with my wife and she starts suffering a heart attack. To get her to the hospital, I speed, run red lights and so forth. Have I done something wrong from a legal perspective? Of course. Was my motive different from the drunk joy rider or criminal trying to escape the scene of a crime. Indeed.
To me the key question becomes: what is true justice in situations like this? For there to be true justice, my motive, my intent must be part of the judgement.
For justice to be karma, there's one more important element. If we have one life only and then oblivion, then justice does not exist outside of whatever the law imposes. But if there is something which survives the body's death, then there is scope for karma to operate. Of course, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists and Jews have different views of what happens after death, but in each of these religions there's a concept of justice which includes consideration of motive or intent.
Karma is NOT justice and does NOT consider intent.
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Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Karma, like prayer, is the culmination of forming incorrect associations betwen one event and another.
A basketball player prays that he'll win the next game at his bedside. The next game he plays he not only wins, but scores the winning goal (or whatever you call it). Of course the prayer had nothing to do with this, but he makes that association. His brain falsely connects the prayer to the victory.
The same happens with Karma. When someone does wrong to you, you might wish that they get a taste of their own medicine. When something bad eventually happens to them, your brain forms an erroneous connection between that bad thing and the wish you made. Someone simply labelled it 'karma' for convenience.
Sees
Dragonslayer
Definitely pop-culture version of karma...really the prayer one also.
Like what?
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Well, realistically speaking, someone who holds karma to be a truth based off such connections would continuously look for similar patterns within the events in his life/life of others/results of wishes thereafter- to uphold it as a truth. If they continuously find similar results, would it not then be karma? Would it just be a coincidence? Perhaps Luck? Besides, that example ( Now that I've been conditioned to use examples more thoughtfully ) is to vague. Most wouldn't call such a thing karma to begin with unless they got exactly what they dished out.
On the other hand if the individual doesn't find similar patterns, I would imagine they would mentally come to a different conclusion, either that their first connection was erroneous to begin with or that the connection was a result of something else. I do this quite often, almost like a trial and error experiment. But dont We all do this anyway? Especially the philosophical beings?
I've found some things to surely be true =) Others I can't find enough patterns to uphold a truth -.-
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Hey. That is a new teaching on Karma? Source?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Pfffft... what does it matter. This is the Interweb.
Interesting how people have such divergent understandings of Karma.
Several people here think of Karma as a sentient, if not outright divine, entity. That is very much at odds with both observable fact and Dharmic doctrine as I understand it.
Several people here think of Karma as a sentient, if not outright divine, entity. That is very much at odds with both observable fact and Dharmic doctrine as I understand it.
chinu
chinu
Yes, Karma Exists.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Now as a man is like this or like that,
according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be;
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad;
he becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds;
And here they say that a person consists of desires,
and as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 7th Century BC
So. If you believe that good things will happen to you if you do good things then when you do something good, and something good happens sometime after, you draw an erroneous correlation between the good thing you did and the good thing that happened to you sometime afterward. That's simply the brain forming erroneous associations between two separate events that, in reality, have nothing to do with each other.
It is also a value system that doesn't reinforce the individual. Because if you do good, and something bad happens to you, you may begin to struggle with that.