Does Karma Exist

[Vinayaka]

Interesting how people have such divergent understandings of Karma.

Several people here think of Karma as a sentient, if not outright divine, entity. That is very much at odds with both observable fact and Dharmic doctrine as I understand it.

Indeed. I cannot help but wonder how all of these understandings came about.
I do think it demonstrates why 'mix and match' can cause confusion.

 

[atanu]

Karma, like prayer, is the culmination of forming incorrect associations betwen one event and another.
...

Now as a man is like this or like that,
according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be;
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad;
he becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds;

And here they say that a person consists of desires,
and as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.

—Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 7th Century BC

Yes. A man is as his deepest desires are.

Karma begins with desire/s.

(Thank you for the citation).

 

[atanu]

"Does karma exist?", is a wrong question, IMO. Samsara exists because of karma.

 

[chinu]

"Does karma exist?", is a wrong question, IMO. Samsara exists because of karma.

Say samsara exist, or say karma exist. Both one and the same things.

 

[LuisDantas]

Indeed. I cannot help but wonder how all of these understandings came about.
I do think it demonstrates why 'mix and match' can cause confusion.

I can give witness to that. Here in Brazil, specifically, there are many Kardecist Spiritists that sell a very distorted understanding of Karma, mainly because they insist on presenting their doctrine as an "evolution" and true successor of all others, explicitly included Christianity.

Their understanding of Karma is very flawed indeed (as is their whole doctrine, but that is matter for another thread), apparently because their dogma insists on claiming:

1. That there is a God
2. That he made Existence so that everyone is destined (even doomed) to grow in "spiritual evolution" indefinitely, without ever "regressing".
3. All other faiths are incomplete or mishappen versions of Kardecist Spiritism, which was revealed to them by "Superior Spirits" in the 19th century.

It is a mess. And a very dangerous doctrine.

 

[Willamena]

Hahahaha. Naw, I'm just weak. I feel compelled to combat ignorance. It's my failing...

No, it's your karma.

 

[YmirGF]

No, it's your karma.

No, Patty, but I do see karma as one of the more bubble-headed concepts I have ever run into.

 

[YmirGF]

Indeed. I cannot help but wonder how all of these understandings came about.
I do think it demonstrates why 'mix and match' can cause confusion.

I tend to agree with this. If I agree that so-called Karma is a reality, whose definition of karma am I to support?

 

[Willamena]

He certainly sounded like he believed what he was saying.

We have a saying in English, that "what kind of a man you are" can be seen in what a person says and does. Our behaviors are a reflection of our beliefs, and those behaviors we enact with no forethought have effectively eliminated any divide that may be thought to exist between belief and behavior. Those are what I referred to as virtuous (in the sense of no pretense).

I look after my own house. I cannot look after your house (or his house, or hers, Hitler's). In my house is where I will find karma. In my house is where karma matters.

 

[YmirGF]

In my house is where karma matters.

*Falls off chair laughing...*

 

[Willamena]

No, Patty, but I do see karma as one of the more bubble-headed concepts I have ever run into.

You deny karma, but at the same time exemplify it.

 

[YmirGF]

You deny karma, but at the same time exemplify it.

Or perhaps your perception of it... a rather big difference. :flirt:

But, humor me, how do I exemplify it, exactly?

 

[atanu]

Or perhaps your perception of it... a rather big difference. :flirt:

But, humor me, how do I exemplify it, exactly?

You exemplify it exactly. That's how.

 

[Willamena]

But, humor me, how do I exemplify it, exactly?

You saw the word "karma" in the thread subject line, your interest was peaked and you opened the thread to read and respond.

As atanu said, the world works.

 

[sun rise]

I can give witness to that. Here in Brazil, specifically, there are many Kardecist Spiritists that sell a very distorted understanding of Karma, mainly because they insist on presenting their doctrine as an "evolution" and true successor of all others, explicitly included Christianity.

Their understanding of Karma is very flawed indeed (as is their whole doctrine, but that is matter for another thread), apparently because their dogma insists on claiming:

1. That there is a God
2. That he made Existence so that everyone is destined (even doomed) to grow in "spiritual evolution" indefinitely, without ever "regressing".
3. All other faiths are incomplete or mishappen versions of Kardecist Spiritism, which was revealed to them by "Superior Spirits" in the 19th century.

It is a mess. And a very dangerous doctrine.

1. Most religions say there is a God.
2. Most spiritual (as opposed to religious) systems talk about God realization as an inevitable goal. If by progress they mean "straight line", then I have an issue. If by progress they mean eventually, I do go along with that.
3. So sayest religions in general because they all assert that they are the one and only or at least the best path.

An example of #2 is Rumi in the Mathnawi III:3900-3906 version by Camille and Kabir Helminski:

I died to being mineral and growth began.
I died to vegetable growth and attained to the state of animals.
I died from animality and became Adam:
why then should I fear?
When have I become less by dying?
Next I shall die to being a human being,
so that I may soar and lift up my head among the angels.
Yet I must escape even from that angelic state:
everything is perishing except His Face.*
Once again I shall be sacrificed, dying to the angelic;
I shall become that which could never be imagined
I shall become nonexistent.
Nonexistence sings its clear melody,
Truly, unto Him shall we return!**

 

[YmirGF]

You exemplify it exactly. That's how.

You saw the word "karma" in the thread subject line, your interest was peaked and you opened the thread to read and respond.

As atanu said, the world works.

I see. Now do you have anything particularly meaningful to say?


I'll give you both another try however.

IF I choose to believe in karma, whose definition of karma is the one to support?

 

[YmirGF]

Karma is in the eye of the beholder...

Surely a trip to a competent Optometrist could solve that problem. Perhaps folks just need better eye protection.

 

[Willamena]

IF I choose to believe in karma, whose definition of karma is the one to support?

Yours is the only one you should support.

 

[sun rise]

After a short humor break, the back-and-forth can continue.

 

[YmirGF]

Yours is the only one you should support.

So I can have any lame definition I want and call it karma? That's just spiffy.