Does omnipotent mean God can do anything?

[ImmortalFlame]

Who says? It is the fight that makes us strong. Help a bird out of its shell and it will die.

I say, suffering is not a requirement for growth. Sure, suffering can make us strong. So can just about any number of positive personal experiences that don't require suffering.

So, again, why should we suffer?

 

[Walkntune]

I say, suffering is not a requirement for growth. Sure, suffering can make us strong. So can just about any number of positive personal experiences that don't require suffering.

So, again, why should we suffer?

Give some examples.Even the human body itself goes trough growing pains.Is the pain of giving birth evil?
Granted some of our suffering does not come from that which caused the suffering but are resistance to it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Give some examples.

Reading, writing, talking, drawing, painting, creating just about anything, getting a job, getting a tan, eating, drinking, sleeping.

Literally, we can learn to "grow" from pretty much any experience - suffering is not a requirement for any kind of growth.

Even the human body itself goes trough growing pains.Is the pain of giving birth evil?

Where did I say suffering was evil? I just said it's not necessary.

 

[Meow Mix]

Give some examples.Even the human body itself goes trough growing pains.Is the pain of giving birth evil?
Granted some of our suffering does not come from that which caused the suffering but are resistance to it.

You're ignoring the question of why there's pain at all associated with these things.

 

[Walkntune]

You're ignoring the question of why there's pain at all associated with these things.

I think personally the unpleasant feeling of pain keeps us striving for the most pleasant feeling of love.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Pete, you need to stop talking so poorly to me. Seriously, we're friends here; there is no reason to be so belligerent.

The PoE can be solved. To solve the PoE, either theists need to drop one of the characteristics of God which leads to the contradiction or suffering needs to be explained.

Besides, since the PoE demonstrates a contradiction in some mainstream theistic concepts, saying that it "can't be solved" is the same as saying that those theistic concepts are irrational by way of having a problem that's insoluble.

So anyway, can you stop being mean to me? I've never been mean to you. Let's be pals and treat disagreements as fun little quirks about each other instead of accusing one another of throwing tantrums. Deal?

I'm sorry I lost my temper with you, Meow Mix. But you do come off as a know-it-all and that annoys me. Why even participate with other RFers when you already have the answers to your own questions?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think personally the unpleasant feeling of pain keeps us striving for the most pleasant feeling of love.

You've still not actually addressed the issue. We get that pain and suffering can provide certain benefits - the issue is whether or not pain is necessary.

In other words, the question is: if God is omnipotent and totally benevolent, why should suffering or pain be a factor in anything?

 

[Walkntune]

You've still not actually addressed the issue. We get that pain and suffering can provide certain benefits - the issue is whether or not pain is necessary.

In other words, the question is: if God is omnipotent and totally benevolent, why should suffering or pain be a factor in anything?

Pain is a great teacher.Whether its necessary or not is not an option.
There is a reason Jesus said the it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
A rich man is more likely to buy his way out of bad circumstance and never learn the lessons but just become harder in the heart.
We will only seek that which is good when we experience that which is bad.
There is no understanding of love without the understanding of sacrifice.
Maybe if all you see is life here then pain stands out a whole lot more than when compared to an eternity.
Maybe it is nothing more than a time of birth.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think personally the unpleasant feeling of pain keeps us striving for the most pleasant feeling of love.

However pain isn't required to feel love. That's the point.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm sorry I lost my temper with you, Meow Mix. But you do come off as a know-it-all and that annoys me. Why even participate with other RFers when you already have the answers to your own questions?

It's ok, I lose my temper too. As long as on your end you consider me your pal, I don't care. Friends lose their tempers with one another from time to time.

I don't mean to come off as a know-it-all. I do happen to know a lot about certain issues though. That doesn't mean I'm infallible or that I even believe I'm infallible. I'm open to being wrong.

I just don't give up a position until it's rational to give it up. Just because someone offers an objection doesn't mean that objection works or defeats the position in question.

Haven't you seen the many times on RF where I've said directly to the person I'm discussing with, "I'm sorry, you're right and I was wrong?" I'm not like that. I'm not an incorrigible person to speak with. I will admit when I'm wrong. But I'd better actually be wrong before I admit it. What's wrong with that?

I know that these issues I'm talking about are personal, so it can seem like an attack. I know that I've been in discussions with one of my female Muslim friends for a bit now where I "felt" like her opinions attacked me. But I just have to remind myself that she's not attacking me, because she's not. I love her as a good friend -- she knows who she is -- and just because we disagree doesn't change that. Just because I can't change her mind doesn't mean that she's a "know-it-all." It just means that she esteems her position to be a good one, which my objections in her mind haven't hurt. That's natural, and even rational.

Through all this stuff we just need to remember that we're human beings and could even be neighbors. You might be theist, and I might be atheist, but if we were neighbors don't you think we'd have a grand time just smoking some brisket together and talking about how nice a day it is? That's what we need to remember. We're all human. We're all really "neighbors" even if we're not. Like any neighbor or friend we'll lose our temper or get emotional once in a while, but as long as we can laugh about it later, that's fine! Right?

 

[Walkntune]

However pain isn't required to feel love. That's the point.

But maybe required to keep us striving after love?

 

[Meow Mix]

But maybe required to keep us striving after love?

Why would it be? Can you cite an example?

My experience is subjective, I know, but I don't have to feel pain to know that I love the one person in this world that I feel I can live the rest of my life with.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Of course I consider it, as I do consider a great many things.
I am merely saying it is possible God could not prevent suffering and create the world and the creatures in it without suffering.

She has painted one box, and I am pointing out that it is a solid box, but a box that can only conclude one thing. That one thing doesn't have to be true. Understand the difference? I already admitted in her box it must be true God is malevolent. However I next examine the box for leaks and so forth. If you want to whine about that let me offer you some cheese and tissue as a companion of your sniffling. Shesh man lighten up.

I am not sniffling and see no reason for you to make silly personal attacks. My post attacked your approach to someone else's argument, not you. If you think that a position you have read is weak or has holes, then by all means point them out. Speculation that the position sounds good because the person putting it forth is clever at arguing is weak IMHO.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Pain is a great teacher.Whether its necessary or not is not an option.
There is a reason Jesus said the it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
A rich man is more likely to buy his way out of bad circumstance and never learn the lessons but just become harder in the heart.
We will only seek that which is good when we experience that which is bad.
There is no understanding of love without the understanding of sacrifice.
Maybe if all you see is life here then pain stands out a whole lot more than when compared to an eternity.
Maybe it is nothing more than a time of birth.

That's the kind of insight I was trying to produce. Well said!

 

[Midnight Pete]

Why would it be? Can you cite an example?

My experience is subjective, I know, but I don't have to feel pain to know that I love the one person in this world that I feel I can live the rest of my life with.

And I sincerely hope you can do just that. I want that for you. But I would argue that heartbreak and sadness are part of being in love. There are good times and bad.

 

[Willamena]

But the logical problem of evil is Epicurus's PoE.



No, it doesn't specify that benevolence is the incorrect attribute. The problem is also solved by dropping omnipotence or omniscience, for instance. This has been true since Epicurus.

But dropping omnipotence is the Problem of Doing Anything You Want. Dropping omniscience would be The Problem of Knowing Everything (or Anything). Those are distinct arguments.

The Problem of Evil drops benevolence.

 

[PolyHedral]

Is there a requirement that God knows everything?

 

[Revoltingest]

Is there a requirement that God knows everything?

Only for omniscient gods. Not for the others.

 

[Willamena]

Is there a requirement that God knows everything?

No. There's no requirements at all.

Oh wait... is that a requirement?

 

[no-body]

I'm not sure what it has to do with (a) God, but if there where no pain we would all die very quickly.