Does omnipotent mean God can do anything?

[Meow Mix]

Yes! And God's power is bigger than the limitations we put on His power. Always.

But pointing out that God must operate within logic isn't "limiting" His power at all. It's just winnowing nonsense statements out of the picture.

For instance, the reason why the often asked question, "Can God create a rock so large that He can't lift it?" isn't a valid objection to omnipotence because it's not a logical possibility, and omnipotence is often defined as the capacity to actualize any logically possible state of affairs.

It's also not possible for God to be God and not-God at the same time and in the same respect, that would be absurd. Nor can God create a Euclidean square-circle. However an omnipotent being can change any physical laws as He sees fit, such as gravity, electromagnetism, and so on since doing so doesn't violate logic.

The "creating a rock so heavy even God can't lift it" bit fails because it's exactly the same thing as the non-question, "What happens if an irresistable force meets an immovable object?" Well, if an irresistable force exists then there can't be such a thing as an immovable object (otherwise the force is resistable by at least one thing: the immovable object). Likewise if an immovable object exists there can't be such a thing as an irresistable force (otherwise the object is movable to at least one thing: the irresistable force).

God can create either an immovable object or an irresistable force (in some ways God is an irresistable force) but not both at the same time by definition.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't think of unrequited love being as necessary or unnecessary. In fact, I don't think of suffering in general as being necessary or unnecessary. I just accept that suffering is.
Buddha Shakyamuni taught that suffering is a fact of life, and this insight he realized for himself.

Well, what I meant by that was that I can't think of any scenarios in which it's logically possible to remove the capacity for unrequited love to exist if sentient beings exist that love one another.

It's logically possible to remove the capacity for physical harm and pain but certain emotional sufferings may not be possible to eliminate while retaining free will.

 

[Midnight Pete]

But pointing out that God must operate within logic isn't "limiting" His power at all. It's just winnowing nonsense statements out of the picture.

Pointing that God must operate within logic is limiting His power. :banghead3



You may not realize how this infuriates me. This is why I get so upset.

 

[Meow Mix]

Pointing that God must operate within logic is limiting His power. :banghead3



You may not realize how this infuriates me. This is why I get so upset.

Well I'm not trying to upset you.

What I'm saying though is that operating within logic isn't really a limitation because things that are illogical aren't actually "things," they're not actually "possibilities."

Even though we can use words that normally mean things to make a statement that "seems" like it means something -- like, say, "Tom is a married bachelor," the sentence said doesn't even mean anything. "Married" has meaning, and "bachelor" has meaning, but "married bachelor" is stringing together two words incorrectly to mean gibberish.

To say "God can't create a married bachelor" isn't saying anything other than God can't do a meaningless thing. We might as well replace "married bachelor" with "dlgdslkjsdg." So the statement "God can't slkgjlksdjgsl" doesn't even really mean anything.

It's hard to explain why it's not really a limitation. It's because people treat "creating a married bachelor" as if it's a possibility, but not one that's allowed by logic: but that's incorrect, it's not a possibility because it "isn't" anything at all.

 

[Midnight Pete]

If you insist that everything in the universe is understandable to the human mind and that God must follow the parameters you establish ... you make yourself out to be God.

Can you not conceive of anything beyond the human intellect?

 

[no-body]

What I'm saying though is that operating within logic isn't really a limitation because things that are illogical aren't actually "things," they're not actually "possibilities."

One would assume that a God would be operating under parameters that aren't quantifiable by human standards/logic. For instance God wouldn't be bound by space/time and would exist in a timeless state (if (a) God really does exists)

 

[Walkntune]

Why would it be? Can you cite an example?

My experience is subjective, I know, but I don't have to feel pain to know that I love the one person in this world that I feel I can live the rest of my life with.

Sure. Absence makes the heart grow fonder is a fairly common experience.

 

[Walkntune]

Pointing that God must operate within logic is limiting His power. :banghead3



You may not realize how this infuriates me. This is why I get so upset.

God not only doesn't operate in logic, he told stories in parables to bypass the logic of man.God operates in wisdom, not logic.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If you insist that everything in the universe is understandable to the human mind and that God must follow the parameters you establish ... you make yourself out to be God.

Can you not conceive of anything beyond the human intellect?

If God has any influence and function in the Universe as we know it, then God must - by definition - conform on some level to this universe's laws.

Is not claiming that God is kind and/or merciful and/or wise attributing qualities to God that are bound by parameters set by humans? If you believe in a God that has any input whatsoever in the Universe, then you must accept that God - at least on some level - must be definable based on the parameters set by this world. In other words, if you claim that God is loving and all-knowing, you must accept that "love" and "knowledge" are concepts that exist within very well defined parameters, and by attributing such aspects to a God you are essentially placing such parameters on to him. If God truly does not exist based on any such parameters, then you have no basis on which to claim that God has any particular qualities whatsoever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Pointing that God must operate within logic is limiting His power. :banghead3



You may not realize how this infuriates me. This is why I get so upset.

Hypothetically, and since we're apparently not limited by logic: does this mean that God could do anything and everything attributed to him while not existing at all?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hypothetically, and since we're apparently not limited by logic: does this mean that God could do anything and everything attributed to him while not existing at all?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Willamena]

Hypothetically, and since we're apparently not limited by logic: does this mean that God could do anything and everything attributed to him while not existing at all?

Existence cheats.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, absolutely.

So... no matter how compelling the evidence, no matter how convinced you feel, even if you're in Heaven partying with Jesus himself, you will always hold to the conviction that no argument could ever truly lead you to conclude that God really does exist?

 

[Willamena]

So... no matter how compelling the evidence, no matter how convinced you feel, even if you're in Heaven partying with Jesus himself, you will always hold to the conviction that no argument could ever truly lead you to conclude that God really does exist?

Not to intervene, but you do realize, I hope, that that asks an entirely different question than above, with a whole new set of implications?

 

[Meow Mix]

If you insist that everything in the universe is understandable to the human mind and that God must follow the parameters you establish ... you make yourself out to be God.

Can you not conceive of anything beyond the human intellect?

I'm not arguing that God is understandable to the human mind, only that God, if He exists, is logical.

All things which exist are logical and necessarily so. But that doesn't get us very far, something can still be absolutely mysterious. We can at least know at a bare minimum that if it exists then it is what it is (identity), that it must be what it is or it's actually something else (excluded middle), and that it can't be what it is and not what it is at the same time and in the same respect (noncontradiction).

Clearly, something can still be absolutely mysterious to human intellect even if we know those three things about it.

 

[Meow Mix]

One would assume that a God would be operating under parameters that aren't quantifiable by human standards/logic. For instance God wouldn't be bound by space/time and would exist in a timeless state (if (a) God really does exists)

Space and time aren't logical parameters, they're contingent.

So yes, God wouldn't have to operate under the parameters of space and time, or any physical laws. All those things are contingent.

God can alter any physical law He so desires such as gravity, space/time, electromagnetism... He can make me pass through a wall, He can turn an orange into an elephant, He can make the universe purple...

The only thing He can't do (because it's not something that can be "done" by anything) is exist and not-exist at the same time in the same respect, or be God and not-God at the same time and in the same respect, or create both an irresistible force and an immovable object at the same time -- things that violate logic, in other words, aren't "doable" by anything; even an omnipotent being.

 

[Meow Mix]

God not only doesn't operate in logic, he told stories in parables to bypass the logic of man.God operates in wisdom, not logic.

This is false, nothing "doesn't operate in logic." It's a self-defeating statement.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, absolutely.

This is a self-contradiction if you're asserting God can exist and not-exist at the same time and in the same respect.

 

[logician]

Pointing that God must operate within logic is limiting His power. :banghead3



You may not realize how this infuriates me. This is why I get so upset.

So a supposed god is illogical? God-like logic could only be ascertained by knowing the big picture, which by definition we are not privy to (as of yet).

 

[Midnight Pete]

God not only doesn't operate in logic, he told stories in parables to bypass the logic of man.God operates in wisdom, not logic.

God operates inside of human understanding and as well as outside of it. Wisdom and logic are human ideas originating from human minds.