Does race exist?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think you get the point of my race debate thread. No one's arguing that there's different subspecies of human in existence today. To use a crude analogy, we would all agree that domesticated dogs are members of the same species (Canis lupus familiaris) but we would agree that there's different "breeds" of dogs. That's much like what is found in humans in terms of variation. Accepting that there's biological variation within the human species does not, in of itself, lead to racism. Scientific racism is pseudoscience.

The concept of race isn't just about recognizing biological variation in the human species; it's about asserting that this variation is divided into distinct groups.

I don't think the comparison with dog breeds is valid. Breeds are distinct because they've been artificially bred to distinct standards. Even within those standards, heredity doesn't guarantee breed: a purebred dog with purebred parents of the same breed but that doesn't meet the breed guidelines isn't considered an "official" example of the breed. Also, most dogs ("mutts") have no breed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Race is really an attempt to convince others that certain groups are different and possibly inferior and no longer members of Homo Sapiens...
Race is a lie.

Always?
Those of us who do see that race exists....we're lying in order to claim inferiority of others?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Always?
Those of us who do see that race exists....we're lying in order to claim inferiority of others?

Which races exist? Can you give some examples?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Using the definition given in the OP, I don't see how 'race' could not exist. If it did not exist how could we send a sample to a lab and have them tell us about our geographical ancestral area? There must then be genetic differences.

It's the "between groups" part that I have trouble with: i.e. that the variation within the group is less (or less important) than the variation between the group.

There's plenty of variation, sure, but it's a big, messy, continuous spectrum and not arranged into neat "race" packages.

 

[George-ananda]

It's the "between groups" part that I have trouble with: i.e. that the variation within the group is less (or less important) than the variation between the group.

The definition given did not address the question of which variations are of greater or lesser importance.

There's plenty of variation, sure, but it's a big, messy, continuous spectrum

That is not inconsistent with the definition.

and not arranged into neat "race" packages.

Again, the definition said nothing about there needing to be 'neat race packages'.

 

[Revoltingest]

Which races exist? Can you give some examples?

Sure.....
Jackie Brown....er, Pam Grier is black.
Jackie Steward is white.
Jackie Chan is Asian.
Those are the biggies.
Are there other races?
Yes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The definition given did not address the question of which variations are of greater or lesser importance.


That is not inconsistent with the definition.

The OP gave the example of haplogroups: i.e. groups with a common genetic characteristic.

Again, the definition said nothing about there needing to be 'neat race packages'.

The concept of "race" depends on the existence of distinct races.

Sure.....
Jackie Brown....er, Pam Grier is black.
Jackie Steward is white.
Jackie Chan is Asian.
Those are the biggies.
Are there other races?
Yes.

How did you decide that "Asian" is a race, as opposed to, say, "Chinese"?

 

[Revoltingest]

How did you decide that "Asian" is a race, as opposed to, say, "Chinese"?

"Chinese" is a nationality.
"Asian" is the preferred term "Asians" I know use to refer to Asians, eg, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, math students.
You wouldn't want me to call them "oriental" now, would you?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sure.....
Jackie Brown....er, Pam Grier is black.
Jackie Steward is white.
Jackie Chan is Asian.
Those are the biggies.
Are there other races?
Yes.

You could probably consider groupings such as this as a race: Austronesian peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be more accurate than groupings like "white" or "black".

 

[Revoltingest]

You could probably consider groupings such as this as a race: Austronesian peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It would be more accurate than groupings like "white" or "black".

Aye, Pacific islanders & Australian aboriginals are rather distinct too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Chinese" is a nationality.

A nationality traditionally considered to be made up of five races:

Five Races Under One Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So then why "Asian" and not "Han", for instance? What made you decide that the term "Han" doesn't describe a race? What criteria did you use to come to this conclusion?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Aye, Pacific islanders & Australian aboriginals are rather distinct too.

Indeed. Indigenous Australians are a very distinct people and one of the oldest human groups.

 

[Revoltingest]

A nationality traditionally cobsidered to be made up of five races:
Five Races Under One Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So then why "Asian" and not "Han", for instance? What made you decide that the term "Han" doesn't describe a race? What criteria did you use to come to this conclusion?

Han Chinese as a race apart from Asians?
No, I see no evidence of that.

If you're pointing out that race can be ill defined in many cases, that definitions of race will vary, & that some people have elements of multiple races, then I've no disagreement. Race exists in the sense that many nebulous things exist, eg, fine art, pornography, style, common sense. These things don't cease to exist just because there are difficulties & disagreements. Perhaps what should be done is to recognize that even though race exists, it's not worthy of the significance often attributed to it by the likes of Nazis, race panderers, etc.

 

[George-ananda]

The OP gave the example of haplogroups: i.e. groups with a common genetic characteristic.

And these exist or else geneticists could not tell us about our ancestry by just studying our DNA.

The concept of "race" depends on the existence of distinct races.

How did you decide that "Asian" is a race, as opposed to, say, "Chinese"?

Again, I think any formal categorization is imperfect but not meaningless. We can divide the traditional inhabitants of the earth (prior to the year 1500) imperfectly into ethnic groups; micro-races and macro-races. These categorizations have only the importance we choose to give to them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And these exist or else geneticists could not tell us about our ancestry by just studying our DNA.

And a haplogroup is not a race.

Again, I think any formal categorization is imperfect but not meaningless. We can divide the traditional inhabitants of the earth (prior to the year 1500) imperfectly into ethnic groups; micro-races and macro-races.

On what basis?

What do you mean by "micro-races" and "macro-races"?

 

[Mycroft]

Race exists. And Usain Bolt beat Alissa Thompson to prove it!

 

[Desert Snake]

''Race'' is not real. It is scientifically, not real, in the common perception of it's definitions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Han Chinese as a race apart from Asians?
No, I see no evidence of that.

No - Han Chinese as a race apart from, say, Turkic, Korean, or Okinawan.

If you're pointing out that race can be ill defined in many cases, that definitions of race will vary, & that some people have elements of multiple races, then I've no disagreement.

No, I'm saying that race - and particularly racial divisions - are purely cultural constructs. I'm saying that you have no more justification to say that a Han and a Uighur are the same race than someone else has to say that they're different. The lines between races - and therefore the concept of race itself - is arbitrary.

Race exists in the sense that many nebulous things exist, eg, fine art, pornography, style, common sense. These things don't cease to exist just because there are difficulties & disagreements.

They exist, but only as cultural constructs... like race.

Perhaps what should be done is to recognize that even though race exists, it's not worthy of the significance often attributed to it by the likes of Nazis, race panderers, etc.

When you say "race exists", precisely what are you saying exists?

 

[Revoltingest]

''Race'' is not real. It is scientifically, not real, in the common perception of it's definitions.

That's what makes it real.
It even has uses....
Forensic anthropology

 

[George-ananda]

What do you mean by "micro-races" and "macro-races"?

Something like ethnic group=Cherokee; micro-race = Native North American; macro-race = Asian

No categorization is perfect but it helps us understand the complex spectrum better.