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Does Science disprove the Genesis description of Creation?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Another newer article I was just reading:
Ancient Earth was a water world

@Subduction Zone, you might want to consider points in this article
Even that one does not help you. The oceans it talks about were not there at Earth's formation.

It takes a lot of energy to place an object in space. I wonder if I can still do the math. If one simplified the math by using an average density it is possible to figure a minimum energy of formation of the Earth. Then if one knee the specific heat of the Earth one could calculate the temperature. To keep it simple some incorrect assumptions would have to be made, but one should be able to get a ballpark estimate.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Your phrasing is a bit odd. Yes, one does not want to accept or reject theories or hypotheses based upon emotions. But that is what it looks like you are doing. You want your personal interpretation of the Bible to be right so you are trying to bend science to do so. Even with the "cool Earth theory" the Earth was still mostly dry. They are not proposing oceans. And that hypothesis is not well accepted yet. If it was there would be no problem to find enough evidence for it to satisfy Wiki.

EDIT: Sorry I conflated you with @SA Huguenot . He is the one demanding that the surface of the Earth was covered with water from the beginning. The early Earth was very hot due to energy released during accretion. I don't mind relatively early oceans, but for millions of years the math and the evidence tells us that the Early Earth was dry.
Yeah, that happens. I often have to ask people "perhaps you have confused me with someone else?" Usually it's because someone has become so caught up in argument that they are already shooting back and forth, and it's like someone joining the discussion accidentally steps into the crossfire. I try to suggest people put down their guns and just read more.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
It takes a lot of energy to place an object in space. I wonder if I can still do the math. If one simplified the math by using an average density it is possible to figure a minimum energy of formation of the Earth. Then if one knee the specific heat of the Earth one could calculate the temperature. To keep it simple some incorrect assumptions would have to be made, but one should be able to get a ballpark estimate.

Well, estimates at such have been done more than once or twice I'd expect. One effect a good model would need is some accounting for how much heat of formation (and fission) was removed by the large amount of energy needed to drive off a large amount of water and even make it escape into space. Another key thing for any time period would be the rate of infalling matter during that time period. Of course, obviously, if the rate is suddenly lower for a significant time period, then there would be a lot of cooling during that period.

Did you notice the many convincing and independent pieces of evidence in the article?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well, estimates at such have been done more than once or twice I'd expect. One effect a good model would need is some accounting for how much heat of formation (and fission) was removed by the large amount of energy needed to drive off a large amount of water and even make it escape into space. Another key thing for any time period would be the rate of infalling matter during that time period. Of course, obviously, if the rate is suddenly lower for a significant time period, then there would be a lot of cooling during that period.

Did you notice the many convincing and independent pieces of evidence in the article?

I don't think that is going to happen. Merely making steam would not do anything. One would need to put enough energy into the steam so that it would be moving at escape velocity. And you should not accuse me of "not reading". I not only read his sources I read others as well and supplied some. What is up for debate is when the oceans first formed, but I do not know of anyone that thinks they existed from the start and that is what @SA Huguenot is claiming for his personal interpretation of Genesis.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The very same evidence the Atheist uses as an argument against God, comes out of the Bible!
:p
It is funny!

What is funny is how much you need to misinterpret things in order to try to make your case.

Sorry for the comparrison, but all I have to do is to show any Atheist that the belief I have in my God, is not one of Blind faith, but one of facts, supported by science.

When are you going to begin doing that? When are you going to begin using actual science?


All I demand is that whenever an atheist tells me a story about Santas, and fairies, they be prepared for a littlebit more deeper explanation than what they are under the impression Christians believe.

At the core, your beliefs are based on blind faith just like a four-year-old's beliefs in Santa. The difference is that you twist and misinterpret actual science and history to convince yourself that your beliefs are grounded in something solid.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
At the core, your beliefs are based on blind faith just like a four-year-old's beliefs in Santa. The difference is that you twist and misinterpret actual science and history to convince yourself that your beliefs are grounded in something solid.
Dear Ecco.
I do not know why you are so furious?
There can be only 2 reasons.
1. The Strawpuppet explanation set out by the Bible critisizer (which you thought was some epicural truth) can easily be demolished by a Christian such as I with, as you call it"4 year old's belief". I assume that you always thought that there was no way to reconcile the Biblical Creation with scientific facts. Even if you regard what I postulated about, you will never be able to use your strawman ever again as evidence that God does not exist. Just as the evidence I gave is not evidence of God, but some incredible fact that what was written in Genesis 3500 years ago, somehow was taken by Kant, and due to collective amnesia over 250 years, science forgot their scientific model came from Genesis.

Now, I do not have to show anyone that God exists, just as I will never expect anyone to give evidence that God does not exist. That is mere foolishness to even think such reasoning will be possible.
However, to try to demand that the Bible does not correlate to science and therefore God does not exist, is just silly.
In such a case, the philosophers 200 years ago will remain a stumbling block against that reasoning. The mere fact that Kant was a Biblical scholar, and used observational science to explain the Nebular theory, is, even if the atheist hates such a notion, the one single and most cardinal facts that no Bible critisizer can sidestep.

2. You never knew about the version of Biblical Creation I described. Which is understandable, for there are not a lot of people that investigated into this as deep as I did. You perhaps read Ken Ham, or Ken Hovint's works, and saw that their version of Creation are leaving much to the Physical and Natural scientific explanation.
There is something which I also do not want to miss out on.

For the believer in Jesus on their salvation for eternal life, this Physical explanation of science does not bother them at all.
They discovered God on another means.

If I were to explain the 10 Plagues of Egypt in pure scientific and natural phenomina, it will actually render that God did not perform those miracles, and on such grounds the atheist will accept that it could have happened without the hand of God. Such a Christian philosophy is just as silly as any other.

For instance, if we find a method to explain how Jesus makde water into wine, it would mean that there was a Natural explanation removing God from the Equation.
To the Christian, it would only mean that it was possible, with or without any scientific explanation and the mere fact that the Creator of water can change His molecules into wine does not change.

But, everything I posted on this thread was not to explain how God created everything with the use of "Scientific facts", It was to demonstrate to the Bible Haters that it is easy to destroy their claim that the Creation model in Genesis does not conform to science.

That's it!
If any person uses the "Santa Mentality" accusation agains a Christian Bible believer, I have the antidote, and I am spreading My "Creation Model" to many Bible believers to show how silly the Atheist's claim about Creation realy is.

Therefore, I think the personal attacks I now see are simply evidence that the atheist realises their holy grail of Creation versus Science burned down to the ground when the Bible set fire to their Straw puppet.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Dear Ecco.
I do not know why you are so furious?
There can be only 2 reasons.
1. The Strawpuppet explanation set out by the Bible critisizer (which you thought was some epicural truth) can easily be demolished by a Christian such as I with, as you call it"4 year old's belief". I assume that you always thought that there was no way to reconcile the Biblical Creation with scientific facts. Even if you regard what I postulated about, you will never be able to use your strawman ever again as evidence that God does not exist. Just as the evidence I gave is not evidence of God, but some incredible fact that what was written in Genesis 3500 years ago, somehow was taken by Kant, and due to collective amnesia over 250 years, science forgot their scientific model came from Genesis.

Now, I do not have to show anyone that God exists, just as I will never expect anyone to give evidence that God does not exist. That is mere foolishness to even think such reasoning will be possible.
However, to try to demand that the Bible does not correlate to science and therefore God does not exist, is just silly.
In such a case, the philosophers 200 years ago will remain a stumbling block against that reasoning. The mere fact that Kant was a Biblical scholar, and used observational science to explain the Nebular theory, is, even if the atheist hates such a notion, the one single and most cardinal facts that no Bible critisizer can sidestep.

2. You never knew about the version of Biblical Creation I described. Which is understandable, for there are not a lot of people that investigated into this as deep as I did. You perhaps read Ken Ham, or Ken Hovint's works, and saw that their version of Creation are leaving much to the Physical and Natural scientific explanation.
There is something which I also do not want to miss out on.

For the believer in Jesus on their salvation for eternal life, this Physical explanation of science does not bother them at all.
They discovered God on another means.

If I were to explain the 10 Plagues of Egypt in pure scientific and natural phenomina, it will actually render that God did not perform those miracles, and on such grounds the atheist will accept that it could have happened without the hand of God. Such a Christian philosophy is just as silly as any other.

For instance, if we find a method to explain how Jesus makde water into wine, it would mean that there was a Natural explanation removing God from the Equation.
To the Christian, it would only mean that it was possible, with or without any scientific explanation and the mere fact that the Creator of water can change His molecules into wine does not change.

But, everything I posted on this thread was not to explain how God created everything with the use of "Scientific facts", It was to demonstrate to the Bible Haters that it is easy to destroy their claim that the Creation model in Genesis does not conform to science.

That's it!
If any person uses the "Santa Mentality" accusation agains a Christian Bible believer, I have the antidote, and I am spreading My "Creation Model" to many Bible believers to show how silly the Atheist's claim about Creation realy is.

Therefore, I think the personal attacks I now see are simply evidence that the atheist realises their holy grail of Creation versus Science burned down to the ground when the Bible set fire to their Straw puppet.
Can you please drop the hyperbole? There are no "Bible haters" here. Try to address claims without spewing falsehoods.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Can you please drop the hyperbole? There are no "Bible haters" here. Try to address claims without spewing falsehoods.
My Apologies.
I did not know you are a lover of the Bible, and like the Creation description therein.
;)
Another newer article I was just reading:
Ancient Earth was a water world

@Subduction Zone, you might want to consider points in this article
Thanks for the research and articles.
There are many more such discoveries such as silver isotopes and huge oceans beneath China.
It just goes to show, we might think we have all the evidence in science, just to learn there is more.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My Apologies.
I did not know you are a lover of the Bible, and like the Creation description therein.
;)

This is a false dichotomy. The fact that I do not hate your fiction does not mean that I love it.

One can still not hate the Bible and explain how the God of the Old Testament is an evil failure.

Thanks for the research and articles.
There are many more such discoveries such as silver isotopes and huge oceans beneath China.
It just goes to show, we might think we have all the evidence in science, just to learn there is more.
The articles did not help him. He didn't understand them. It doesn't appear to have understood them either.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
This is a false dichotomy. The fact that I do not hate your fiction does not mean that I love it.

One can still not hate the Bible and explain how the God of the Old Testament is an evil failure.


The articles did not help him. He didn't understand them. It doesn't appear to have understood them either.
OK, so lets see.
The Solar System was at 5 billion years ago a Nebulous clour, swirling around a central point, and it started to collect matter.
At this time there was no Sun to warm the enterior of this cloud, therefore this matter was at almost absolute zero!
now this matter started to grow into small icy thistleballs, and then football sixe and then as large as say the continents.
It was still ice, and the sun still did not shine and these collections of matter was still soft, and kept on swirling closer and closer and combined into enough matter to become a planet.
This was perhaps the 5 to 10 million years as was mentioned in one article.
Now, these planets were still not spherical, but about 500 million years later, the Sun started to shine on these cold and icy planets.

This is my explanation on what I founs is said by these articles, now yours.

The Sun collected matter throughout the Solar system's space.
It grew very large, and ignited.
There was a very small burning and glowing, No one knows why it would be burning in the first instance, that became bombarded with comets and asteroids, and filled it up with water over another 400 million years. Only then did the Earth cool down and had water.

Mmmm?
again, why do you suppose the Earth was this glowing hot planet?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK, so lets see.
The Solar System was at 5 billion years ago a Nebulous clour, swirling around a central point, and it started to collect matter.
At this time there was no Sun to warm the enterior of this cloud, therefore this matter was at almost absolute zero!
now this matter started to grow into small icy thistleballs, and then football sixe and then as large as say the continents.
It was still ice, and the sun still did not shine and these collections of matter was still soft, and kept on swirling closer and closer and combined into enough matter to become a planet.
This was perhaps the 5 to 10 million years as was mentioned in one article.
Now, these planets were still not spherical, but about 500 million years later, the Sun started to shine on these cold and icy planets.

This is my explanation on what I founs is said by these articles, now yours.

The Sun collected matter throughout the Solar system's space.
It grew very large, and ignited.
There was a very small burning and glowing, No one knows why it would be burning in the first instance, that became bombarded with comets and asteroids, and filled it up with water over another 400 million years. Only then did the Earth cool down and had water.

Mmmm?
again, why do you suppose the Earth was this glowing hot planet?
Why do you ignore gravity?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Why do you ignore gravity?
But I never did ignore gravity, I need to know why you are highly over estimating Gravity, when during the first 10 million, or even the first 300 million years there was a very low gravitational force.

Think about this.
If matter is strewen out over the entire space of the Solar System,
and it only starts off to move towards the centres of these billions of eddies in this cloud of spacedust, how strong will the gravitational force be within this eddies?
It will be very, very small compared to say the current size of Jupitor.

If these space dust was a collection of ICY particles, near to absolute zero, the cores of these gravitational points will be just as cold.

If these billions of gravitational points are close to each other, travelling at roughly the same speed around the centre of the Nebular cloud, (lets for argument say they weigh rougly a kilo each,)...
They will not smash into each other with great force due to some immence gravitational force.
for one simple reason, the combined gravitational force was spread out in the orbit of the future planet.

Let me explain.
If we have these billions of small icy thistleballs strewen out in between the orbit of Venus and Mars' future orbits, it will look like an oval water channel covered with billions of polystyrene balls, with the polystirene representing the thistleballs.
Now, imagine the water moving in this chanel at a constant speed, and the polystirene balls on top of it.

The polystirene balls will not have huge crashes punching into each other, but as they travel, will attract each other very gently, untill initially a few hundred colections of these polystirene heaps is seen.
Lateron these heaps of polistyrine will either slow down or maintain their velocity, depending on how it rubs against the walls of this chanel (the walls will represent attraction deviations from orther such collections that might be just out of the range of the 2 orbits we spoke about, but might have some gravitational effect on the heaps in our chanel)

Eventually we will endup with only a few big heaps of Polystirene, and as the flow of the chanel continues, it will clump together into one huge clooection.

Now, lets think about the gravitational force of the various stages of this collection of thistleballs.
When it was still just dust, the gravitational forces were scattered over the full distance between the orbits of the future neighbouring planets of the Earth, and the same with the other planets.

When, in this pathwat around the sun, where the future Earth would shape, only two particles passed each other closeby, and their gravitational fields attracted each other. This happened throughout the whole "Pathway", and this was whgere the original gravitational fields came into being. Well, 2 particles had enough attraction to pull in one more, and so it continued, untill we have 1Kg balls. Their gravitational force was so poor, it did not seem to have the ennergy to pull any matter into itself with a force to heat anything up to a measurable energy level. Considering that these thistleballs were anyhow almost at absolute zero, they would continue to collect other balls and they will become 2Kg.
Still these balls were traveling at relative speeds to each other, and did not bash into each other, but integrated as they continued on this one way path.
Well, when these balls became planetessimals, and proto planets, they still did not heat up, but would travel this "Pathway" and some might gain just a few Km per hour on its forerunner, and they will join.
Agreed, only when these protp planets became say 5000 Km wide, did they have gravitational forces that would pull the smaller to itself.
Even in this scenario, we will still not see this huge crash because the smaller ball will swing around the larger, and will lose its own momentum against the attraction forces.

Only now will the biggest frozen ball, right in the centre have enough matter to create nuclear fusion, and it will ignite.
As for the planetary sized balls in the rest of this space, they already develloped into huge spheres turning on their axis' and orbits.

I still have to understand where this Hadean eon derived from.
The only model I know of suggesting this is the one from La Place, who was totally incorrect in claiming the Planets popped out of this residuce matter of the Sun.
This is the only way the Earth could have been a red hot glowing planet in space.
Problem is, La Place did not know that the Sun is turning too slow, and the law of conservation of ennergy will not explain the speed of the planets.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
But I never did ignore gravity, I need to know why you are highly over estimating Gravity, when during the first 10 million, or even the first 300 million years there was a very low gravitational force.

Think about this.
If matter is strewen out over the entire space of the Solar System,
and it only starts off to move towards the centres of these billions of eddies in this cloud of spacedust, how strong will the gravitational force be within this eddies?
It will be very, very small compared to say the current size of Jupitor.

If these space dust was a collection of ICY particles, near to absolute zero, the cores of these gravitational points will be just as cold.

If these billions of gravitational points are close to each other, travelling at roughly the same speed around the centre of the Nebular cloud, (lets for argument say they weigh rougly a kilo each,)...
They will not smash into each other with great force due to some immence gravitational force.
for one simple reason, the combined gravitational force was spread out in the orbit of the future planet.

Let me explain.
If we have these billions of small icy thistleballs strewen out in between the orbit of Venus and Mars' future orbits, it will look like an oval water channel covered with billions of polystyrene balls, with the polystirene representing the thistleballs.
Now, imagine the water moving in this chanel at a constant speed, and the polystirene balls on top of it.

The polystirene balls will not have huge crashes punching into each other, but as they travel, will attract each other very gently, untill initially a few hundred colections of these polystirene heaps is seen.
Lateron these heaps of polistyrine will either slow down or maintain their velocity, depending on how it rubs against the walls of this chanel (the walls will represent attraction deviations from orther such collections that might be just out of the range of the 2 orbits we spoke about, but might have some gravitational effect on the heaps in our chanel)

Eventually we will endup with only a few big heaps of Polystirene, and as the flow of the chanel continues, it will clump together into one huge clooection.

Now, lets think about the gravitational force of the various stages of this collection of thistleballs.
When it was still just dust, the gravitational forces were scattered over the full distance between the orbits of the future neighbouring planets of the Earth, and the same with the other planets.

When, in this pathwat around the sun, where the future Earth would shape, only two particles passed each other closeby, and their gravitational fields attracted each other. This happened throughout the whole "Pathway", and this was whgere the original gravitational fields came into being. Well, 2 particles had enough attraction to pull in one more, and so it continued, untill we have 1Kg balls. Their gravitational force was so poor, it did not seem to have the ennergy to pull any matter into itself with a force to heat anything up to a measurable energy level. Considering that these thistleballs were anyhow almost at absolute zero, they would continue to collect other balls and they will become 2Kg.
Still these balls were traveling at relative speeds to each other, and did not bash into each other, but integrated as they continued on this one way path.
Well, when these balls became planetessimals, and proto planets, they still did not heat up, but would travel this "Pathway" and some might gain just a few Km per hour on its forerunner, and they will join.
Agreed, only when these protp planets became say 5000 Km wide, did they have gravitational forces that would pull the smaller to itself.
Even in this scenario, we will still not see this huge crash because the smaller ball will swing around the larger, and will lose its own momentum against the attraction forces.

Only now will the biggest frozen ball, right in the centre have enough matter to create nuclear fusion, and it will ignite.
As for the planetary sized balls in the rest of this space, they already develloped into huge spheres turning on their axis' and orbits.

I still have to understand where this Hadean eon derived from.
The only model I know of suggesting this is the one from La Place, who was totally incorrect in claiming the Planets popped out of this residuce matter of the Sun.
This is the only way the Earth could have been a red hot glowing planet in space.
Problem is, La Place did not know that the Sun is turning too slow, and the law of conservation of ennergy will not explain the speed of the planets.
You are still ignoring gravity and now spouting nonsense.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
1. The Strawpuppet explanation set out by the Bible critisizer (which you thought was some epicural truth) can easily be demolished by a Christian such as I with, as you call it"4 year old's belief".

Which strawpuppet explanation put out by which Bible criticizer? Perhaps you are referring to something like the belief that many fundamentalists have that there actually was a global flood about 4000 years ago? Well, I would definitely say the Bible was wrong there. But, perhaps a Christian such as yourself can easily demolish that idea.

I assume that you always thought that there was no way to reconcile the Biblical Creation with scientific facts.

Ever since I learned a little about history and science. Scientific facts are at odds with many aspects of your biblical creation stories just as they are at odds with creation stories from all other religions.


Even if you regard what I postulated about, you will never be able to use your strawman ever again as evidence that God does not exist.

So, now you are saying it is my strawman that you are referring to. OK. However, you seem to be trying to conflate the conflict between science and your creation stories with the evidence I use to know that God does not exist. They are two different things.


Just as the evidence I gave is not evidence of God, but some incredible fact that what was written in Genesis 3500 years ago, somehow was taken by Kant, and due to collective amnesia over 250 years, science forgot their scientific model came from Genesis.

In a word - nonsense.
Perhaps you can go to one of these commentaries on Kant's works regarding Genesis and show where his writings support your assertions.

Kant On History and Culture- The Imaginative Conservative
The “Conjectural Beginning of Human History”[1] is Kant’s attempt to recast the creation story of Genesis.​
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23926682?seq=1
KANT'S TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF GENESIS​


However, to try to demand that the Bible does not correlate to science and therefore God does not exist, is just silly.

Well, if the stories about what a god did are demonstrably false, then it's a pretty good indication that the stories were written by men ignorant of nature and not written by, or influenced by, a god. Since, then, we are left with stories written by men, we can put them into the same category as other stories written by men about other gods. Stories that surely you would agree are nonsensical.

In such a case, the philosophers 200 years ago will remain a stumbling block against that reasoning. The mere fact that Kant was a Biblical scholar, and used observational science to explain the Nebular theory, is, even if the atheist hates such a notion, the one single and most cardinal facts that no Bible critisizer can sidestep.

Do you understand what you actually wrote? Kant "used observational science to explain the Nebular theory". Nowhere have you shown that Kant used anything in Genesis to form that theory.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
2. You never knew about the version of Biblical Creation I described. Which is understandable, for there are not a lot of people that investigated into this as deep as I did. You perhaps read Ken Ham, or Ken Hovint's works, and saw that their version of Creation are leaving much to the Physical and Natural scientific explanation.
There is something which I also do not want to miss out on.


I don't rely on Ham or Hovind or you to explain Genesis. I am quite capable of reading and understanding it. I am quite capable of seeing the gross errors. I am also quite capable of seeing and understanding the mind-bending efforts that fundamentalists go through to try to reconcile the very obvious problems.
  • A day is not a day - it can be billions of years.
  • There are time gaps between the days.
  • There was no incest among Adam's offspring and their parents because in those days there was no incest.
  • The ark was not overcrowded because Noah took only two of every "kind".
  • There was no incest among Noah's offspring and their parents because in those days there was no incest.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But, everything I posted on this thread was not to explain how God created everything with the use of "Scientific facts", It was to demonstrate to the Bible Haters that it is easy to destroy their claim that the Creation model in Genesis does not conform to science.

That's it!

But you haven't. Not at all. The writings of Genesis disagreed with science before you came to this forum and they still do.

Once again, I, and I'll safely say most atheists, do not hate the bible.
At best we are disgusted by the lessons it tries to teach like advocating slavery and rape.
You should also recognize that there are many Christians that do not take Genesis literally. Would you refer to them as Bible Haters also?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Therefore, I think the personal attacks I now see are simply evidence that the atheist realises their holy grail of Creation versus Science burned down to the ground when the Bible set fire to their Straw puppet.

What personal attacks?
  • Refuting your theories is not making personal attacks.
  • Pointing out that your "evidence" is nothing more than your unsubstantiated opinions is not making personal attacks.
  • Pointing out that your conclusions like: "the atheist realises their holy grail of Creation versus Science burned down to the ground" are nonsensical, is not making personal attacks.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
we might think we have all the evidence in science, just to learn there is more.
Yes -- that has happened plenty of times in plenty of science areas, even physics, where for a time in the 19th century it was felt that physics was just about complete (!)....which of course was quite wrong.
 
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