Does Spirituality Require Belief?

[Rick O'Shez]

Where did you come across the Buddha quoted as saying that his purpose in meditating was to free people from suffering? I've never come across such a quote.

Liberation from suffering is the central theme of Buddhist teachings, though it's expressed in different ways across the schools.

 

[Kirran]

Down that path lies madness! Madness!

Problem?

 

[Sunstone]

Liberation from suffering is the central theme of Buddhist teachings, though it's expressed in different ways across the schools.

Yes, I know liberation from suffering is the central theme of Buddhist teachings, but where is the Buddha purported to have said that one should make the defining purpose or goal of meditation freedom from suffering? That is, that one should sit down to meditate while trying and making an effort in some fashion or manner to free oneself from suffering? It seemed to me that Carla was asserting that the Buddha said to do that. However, I have never seen such a quote attributed to the Buddha. I am certain that meditation is in some places held out to be, or implied to be, a means to liberation from suffering, but I am not at all certain that people are admonished to meditate while trying to free themselves from suffering. Do you see the distinction, yet?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes, I know liberation from suffering is the central theme of Buddhist teachings, but where is the Buddha purported to have said that one should make the defining purpose or goal of meditation freedom from suffering?

In the suttas the Buddha repeatedly said that the defining purpose of Buddhist practice generally is liberation from suffering.
See here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.wlsh.html

If you mean that in a more general way meditation can be used for other purposes, then yes, of course. It does depend on the method of meditation, there are many approaches.

 

[wizanda]

I think it's worth distinguishing between beliefs and practices, that distinction isn't always made clearly enough.

Belief and believe, always contain a lie in the middle of them, in other words, it isn't purely based on evidence. It is possible to base most practices on firm scientific evidence, in other words, tested and validated hypothesis.

A lot of people meditate because they "believe" it helps them to be calm, have peacefulness.

There have been scientific studies into meditation, which is proven to create harmonious brainwave patterns... In adept Zazen/Yogi meditation it is possible to withstand extreme conditions such as cold, and pain... So people don't just believe it might do something, there are proven scientific facts to it throughout history.

 

[Sunstone]

In the suttas the Buddha repeatedly said that the defining purpose of Buddhist practice generally is liberation from suffering.
See here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.wlsh.html

If you mean that in a more general way meditation can be used for other purposes, then yes, of course. It does depend on the method of meditation, there are many approaches.

Do you see a distinction between saying "Meditation can lead to freedom from suffering", and admonishing someone to "meditate in order to free themselves from suffering"? I'm talking about a very subtle distinction here.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Do you see a distinction between saying "Meditation can lead to freedom from suffering", and admonishing someone to "meditate in order to free themselves from suffering"? I'm talking about a very subtle distinction here.

I can see the distinction, but who is admonishing?

We can meditate with a purpose in mind or we can meditate with no expectations.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There have been scientific studies into meditation, which is proven to create harmonious brainwave patterns... In adept Zazen/Yogi meditation it is possible to withstand extreme conditions such as cold, and pain... So people don't just believe it might do something, there are proven scientific facts to it throughout history.

"Proven facts throughout history" is a bit of a stretch, what with legend and folklore and such. More recently neuroscience has confirmed changes in the brains of regular meditators, though there is still much to learn. The tricky thing with meditative states is their subjectivity.

I think the point is that one needs to experience these things for oneself.

 

[wizanda]

"Proven facts throughout history" is a bit of a stretch, what with legend and folklore and such?

With scientific evidence.... Science isn't only a modern thing, it means: 'the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure, and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.'

So within Yogi practises, they've spent years developing techniques which work. Sumo wrestlers are taught meditation to withstand pain, as are other martial artists like Shaolin monks, etc.

So the science has been in the formulating of these methodologies; as you pointed out, it is only in modern times, that we can now examine the direct results of these practises on the body.

 

[allfoak]

If there is a need to defend this thing people call spirituality then there is belief involved.
No need to defend anything if one does not hold beliefs.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If there is a need to defend this thing people call spirituality then there is belief involved.

I think the underlying issue is a disagreement about what "spirituality" actually is.

 

[allfoak]

Then lets give it a definition.
I will begin...

To know yourself you must accept that which is unseen.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

To know yourself you must accept that which is unseen.

By "unseen" do you mean "unwanted"? I'm not sure how we can accept stuff which we can't see.

 

[Mindmaster]

No, but I never really have had belief in my path. Is working with the unseen forces directly requiring a belief or can you just try it out and learn? Does that require belief when you find some weirdness? Not, really... You have weird experiences maybe in comparison to the average folks, but that doesn't mean you have "belief" just because you are non-conventional.

Most of the old traditional witchcraft, shamanistic, or folk practices do not expose a dogma of any sort but nonetheless are highly spiritual. In these types of systems you are supposed to learn through doing and generally that's probably why I find them exciting... I think Buddhism can be very spiritual and doesn't require belief to function either.

 

[Unification]

Is it necessary to believe in something, such as a god, in order to be spiritual? That is, does spirituality require belief? Why or why not?

For the purposes of this thread, let's define "spirituality" as "the extent and manner in which a person deals with or copes with their psychological self." A person who was relatively skillful at dealing with their psychological self would thus be considered relatively spiritual.

"Psychological self" here means the self, the "I", the ego, the consciousness, or whatever you want to call those things that we identify as being us. For instance, I might think of myself as being the thoughts that run through my head. Or I might think of myself as being my awareness or consciousness. Or I might think of myself as being to some extent, or in some fashion, a particular clothing style that I identify myself with -- e.g. "That's my look." or "That's me." Or perhaps I think of myself as being in some way the things I legally own. What I think of as "me" is potentially all but unlimited. The manner and extent to which I deal with or cope with the fact of my having a psychological self constitutes my spirituality.

I would say that belief in deities or anything exoteric to the body wouldn't be required.

Belief internally(spiritually), within oneself would make more sense. Belief that there is a latent power/energy/source within that can heal, teach, expand. Believing in that power source vested within someone to change, overcome, defeat their inner enemies that take away peace and joy.

If someone were psychogically suffering in any way, it would require belief and faith within oneself that there is an escape from such psychological suffering. The sea of consciousness has many forms, there are more and more and more and more and infinite sides to the sea. Some seas are rough and painful, some are calm and blissful. While in the rough and painful, believing and hoping that there is another side of the sea. . which there always is. Belief that there is even something to see(be aware of) beyond what we can see(are currently aware of.)

We are constantly, albeit indirectly usually, always asking others to have faith and believe by our reasoning together and the planting of seeds in each other's minds. When someone asks another, what would change your mind about something? In order for someone to change their mind about something, they would initially have to believe and have faith 1)that they can change, 2)that there even is something to change for, and 3)in the reason to change.

Belief within becomes knowing/direct experience, continuous belief within becomes the expansion of knowing.

Ie: person X, "I'm a fundamental Zionist."
Person Y, "That's stupid and dogmatic."
Person X, "I would have to believe that is stupid and dogmatic in order to change."
Person Y, "Belief is for the delusional."
Person X, "But I would have to believe your way is better."

Person X, "I suffer from depression."
Person Y, "Do you believe and have faith that you can overcome depression?"
Person X, "Belief is for the delusional."
Person Y, "You should try to have faith, you can overcome."
Person X, "Faith in what, your deity?"
Person Y, "No, faith there is a power within you to overcome."

Person X, "I will do such and such tomorrow at the lab."
Person X without being aware, "I have blind faith and belief that I will do such and such tomorrow at the lab for I do not know the future."

 

[Erebus]

Is it necessary to believe in something, such as a god, in order to be spiritual? That is, does spirituality require belief? Why or why not?

Short answer: No.

Going by the definition of spirituality you provided (and for what it's worth, that's certainly one of the better definitions I've seen) belief in some form of deity would just be one way of exploring your own identity and how you fit/don't fit into the wider world. In my opinion, theism can be a useful tool in this regard, but it's certainly not the only way to go about it. It's perhaps not even the best way, though I don't think I'm nearly qualified to say what the best way is.

My opinion on this is perhaps different to many theists. For some, a deity of some sort is the source of all human inspiration. For me, deities are more likely a symptom of humanity's capacity to be inspired.

 

[chevron1]

No, but I never really have had belief in my path. Is working with the unseen forces directly requiring a belief or can you just try it out and learn? Does that require belief when you find some weirdness?

it might require belief of some kind in order to activate a skill to see the unseen. for example, if you don't believe that the earth is round, then flying around the world is impossible.

 

[LuisDantas]

If by belief we mean some sort of supernatural acceptance, then certainly not.

 

[Gambit]

Is there any kind of practice (spiritual or otherwise) that does not involve some kind of belief?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is there any kind of practice (spiritual or otherwise) that does not involve some kind of belief?

There is likely to be the belief that that the practice is worth doing for some reason, but that's probably more like confidence based on previous experience of the practice working.