Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

[loverofhumanity]

“By the righteousness of God! It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men. Upon them the eyes of Bahá are fastened. To this testifieth the Kingdom of Names, could ye but comprehend it. Whoso followeth his Lord, will renounce the world and all that is therein”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í

 

[oldbadger]

Dear old badger. I find myself impelled to give you another like just for your perseverance. [emoji106]

Dear Loverofhumanity, I feel compelled to award you a likey-thingy for your senso of humour and persistence.

 

[oldbadger]

"My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith. For instance [in the future] should a woman..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...

(Revelation of Baha'u'llah Volume 2)

"He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me." (Gleanings)

And do you think that I hold Bahauallah in any but the highest regard? I would extend to Bahauallah the same level of respect that would to Yeshua BarYosef the handworker who walked and worked along the Capernaum shoreline, and who ate and drank with his friends.

But Bahauallah, despite the highest discretion and diplomacy, would not hold back his truth....... he told you how he intended to correct the failings of mankind and the world! He wrote it down!:-
...........to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

...and that, loverofhumanity, is a Divine, Ordained World Order. A theocracy, if Bahauallah is right.

I believe that you cannot admit it here or anywhere else. Just accept it within. But the reason why your Faith will not make it is because, imo, it already took a wrong turn somewhere.

Obviously, as a Deist, I believe that God's forces on Earth sort everything out just fine in the end. Mother Nature cannot be argued with, and this World will manage just fine, with or without arrogant human beings who somehow think that they're special.

 

[oldbadger]

“By the righteousness of God! It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men. Upon them the eyes of Bahá are fastened. To this testifieth the Kingdom of Names, could ye but comprehend it. Whoso followeth his Lord, will renounce the world and all that is therein”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í

Yes.... Bahauallah knew how to communicate.
'We have no designs upon your kingdoms, but we'll win the hearts and minds of your subjects..... they are our goal. And when we've won them, they will renounce all...... everything!'

And, imo, you people miss it! Eyes wide open and staring hard, you miss the reason within, behind and beyond his very words. That's why you'll not do any better, methinks.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And do you think that I hold Bahauallah in any but the highest regard? I would extend to Bahauallah the same level of respect that would to Yeshua BarYosef the handworker who walked and worked along the Capernaum shoreline, and who ate and drank with his friends.

But Bahauallah, despite the highest discretion and diplomacy, would not hold back his truth....... he told you how he intended to correct the failings of mankind and the world! He wrote it down!:-
...........to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

...and that, loverofhumanity, is a Divine, Ordained World Order. A theocracy, if Bahauallah is right.

I believe that you cannot admit it here or anywhere else. Just accept it within. But the reason why your Faith will not make it is because, imo, it already took a wrong turn somewhere.

Obviously, as a Deist, I believe that God's forces on Earth sort everything out just fine in the end. Mother Nature cannot be argued with, and this World will manage just fine, with or without arrogant human beings who somehow think that they're special.

But how do you equate a Divine World Order with a theocracy as we have never had a Divine Order ever before? Christ and Muhammad never created one, neither did any of the other prophets.

What we do have are failed attempts at man made systems trying to pass themselves off as Divine orders but they were never Divine from the start so we cannot compare them to one that is definitely from God Himself, the God of love written and signed and sealed by the Prophet Himself.

That's why I don't accept your argument that we are a theocracy because firstly their attempts were man made then we are a democratically elected body not a body run autocratically which all the others are. There is no one person with any power in the Baha'i Faith whereas all that we have had previously is the papacy, the caliphate and the Imamate as well as individuals like the Dalai Lama all individuals with power. Next the Baha'i System is only for Baha'is and functions through consultation and majority rule not autocratic rule like the other systems.

Next the manner in which it must function, its duties and limitations have been set forward. It is a legislative body not an executive body and it can not interpret the Words of God like the other systems which is where they went astray because wrong interpretations made them miss important things like the return of Christ. If they had been Divine they would never have missed it.

And the Baha'i system is a loving not dictatorial process based upon human rights. Even minorities are to be given special priorities in the Baha'i system.

But again it is a System for only those who are Baha'is not the outside world and the Universal House of Justice never will have ever any jurisdiction over anyone but the Baha'i Community because that is its nature.

So you see, there are numerous flaws in your argument about the Baha'i System being a theocracy when it's functions, and processes do not compare in any way to theocracies because there are no individuals with any power and it runs on a principle of consultation and majority vote whereas those systems run mainly on autocratic rule. The final decision rests with one man whether it be the pope or the caliph or imam. We have no such person in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And do you think that I hold Bahauallah in any but the highest regard? I would extend to Bahauallah the same level of respect that would to Yeshua BarYosef the handworker who walked and worked along the Capernaum shoreline, and who ate and drank with his friends.

But Bahauallah, despite the highest discretion and diplomacy, would not hold back his truth....... he told you how he intended to correct the failings of mankind and the world! He wrote it down!:-
...........to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

...and that, loverofhumanity, is a Divine, Ordained World Order. A theocracy, if Bahauallah is right.

I believe that you cannot admit it here or anywhere else. Just accept it within. But the reason why your Faith will not make it is because, imo, it already took a wrong turn somewhere.

Obviously, as a Deist, I believe that God's forces on Earth sort everything out just fine in the end. Mother Nature cannot be argued with, and this World will manage just fine, with or without arrogant human beings who somehow think that they're special.

Through the power of God He will establish it and what is God? God is love.

The Bible tells us that “God is Love”, and the Bible also says that God is Spirit. Baha'u'llah will bring about these conditions through love and spiritual means only.

1 John 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[George-ananda]

@Sen McGlinn @oldbadger (and all others involved in this difference of opinion in this thread)

Here are the words of the Guardian in respect to the matter in dispute;

:

In the light of these words, it seems fully evident that the way to approach this instruction is in realizing the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh as an ever-growing organism destined to become something new and greater than any of the revealed religions of the past. Whereas former Faiths inspired hearts and illumined souls, they eventuated in formal religions with an ecclesiastical organization, creeds, rituals and churches, while the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, likewise renewing man’s spiritual life, will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state. By this manifestation of the Divine Will in a higher degree than in former ages, humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth.

(30 November 1930)

The Bahá’ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well.

The Bahá’ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá’ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá’í State.

(19 April 1941)

By “Government” … is meant the executive body which will enforce the laws when the Bahá’í Faith has reached the point when it is recognized and accepted entirely by any particular nation.


Not only will the present-day Spiritual Assemblies be styled differently in future, but they will be enabled also to add to their present functions those powers, duties, and prerogatives necessitated by the recognition of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, not merely as one of the recognized religious systems of the world, but as the State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power. And as the Bahá’í Faith permeates the masses of the peoples of East and West, and its truth is embraced by the majority of the peoples of a number of the Sovereign States of the world, will the Universal House of Justice attain the plenitude of its power, and exercise as the supreme organ of the Bahá’í Commonwealth all the rights, the duties and responsibilities incumbent upon the world’s future superstate.


When I was a Baha'i these things were to be embraced as a good thing (not denied).

Here is one official Baha'i Source for the above quotes.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@Sen McGlinn @oldbadger (and all others involved in this difference of opinion in this thread)

Here are the words of the Guardian in respect to the matter in dispute;

:

In the light of these words, it seems fully evident that the way to approach this instruction is in realizing the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh as an ever-growing organism destined to become something new and greater than any of the revealed religions of the past. Whereas former Faiths inspired hearts and illumined souls, they eventuated in formal religions with an ecclesiastical organization, creeds, rituals and churches, while the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, likewise renewing man’s spiritual life, will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state. By this manifestation of the Divine Will in a higher degree than in former ages, humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth.

(30 November 1930)

The Bahá’ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well.

The Bahá’ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá’ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá’í State.

(19 April 1941)

By “Government” … is meant the executive body which will enforce the laws when the Bahá’í Faith has reached the point when it is recognized and accepted entirely by any particular nation.


Not only will the present-day Spiritual Assemblies be styled differently in future, but they will be enabled also to add to their present functions those powers, duties, and prerogatives necessitated by the recognition of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, not merely as one of the recognized religious systems of the world, but as the State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power. And as the Bahá’í Faith permeates the masses of the peoples of East and West, and its truth is embraced by the majority of the peoples of a number of the Sovereign States of the world, will the Universal House of Justice attain the plenitude of its power, and exercise as the supreme organ of the Bahá’í Commonwealth all the rights, the duties and responsibilities incumbent upon the world’s future superstate.


When I was a Baha'i these things were to be embraced as a good thing (not denied).

Here is one official Baha'i Source for the above quotes.

Please note the title of the thread here.

It speaks of a world theocracy. Does the Baha'i Faith intend to become a world theocracy?

What is defined as a world theocracy in the letter from the House of Justice you quoted? Is it the Baha'i System?

"He thinks your question is well put: what the Guardian was referring to was the theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made, and yet, being partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muḥammad are in a sense theocracies. The Bahá’í theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself."

Although the Guardian used the word theocracy he was not referring to the Baha'i System but failed man made theocracies and as you can see above the Baha'i 'theocracy' is not to be identified with the Catholic Church or the Caliphate as the Baha'i system is divinely ordained not a 'world theocracy' as our thread creator entitled it inferring it will be oppressive like the caliphate and Catholic Church were.

Of course, the idea of the Baha'i Faith as a 'world theocracy' in the vein of the caliphate or church is rejected because it is 'Divine'. Man might oppress humanity but God does not.

This thread is attempting to say that the Baha'i Faith will be like the Catholic Church and the Caliphate with their Inquisitions and like the Ottoman Empire which ended up being corrupt to the core.

If the title read 'Is the Baha'i Faith a Divine Order revealed by God then that would be different but it's trying to cunningly associate our Administration with the cruelty and oppression of the Sultans and the popes and that we are headed in the same direction. Except it is continually being overlooked that this system is from God so it is a loving and perfect system as God is love and cannot end up like the Papacy or the Caliphate. This is the day that will not be followed by night.

That is what I am defending here as the Baha'i System is divinely ordained and so it will not have the failings of these man made systems.

But only the Universal House of Justice is free from error. So there's plenty of room for human error but the difference here is that the House of Justice can fix any problem because they can never become corrupted.

 

[oldbadger]

But how do you equate a Divine World Order with a theocracy as we have never had a Divine Order ever before? Christ and Muhammad never created one, neither did any of the other prophets.

Muddled thinking there.... right there!
So we've never had a true theocracy before, but Bahai hopes to have one in the future.
Your prejudice with the word causes you to reject it, again and again.
Call it another name....... but a rose is a rose, by any other name.

What we do have are failed attempts at man made systems trying to pass themselves off as Divine orders but they were never Divine from the start so we cannot compare them to one that is definitely from God Himself, the God of love written and signed and sealed by the Prophet Himself.

So they were pseudo-theocracies!
How can pseudo-theocracies have any impact on a real one?
Yours will just be far more dangerous if it rever comes about.
Humans will have left tjhe beauty of it far behind.

That's why I don't accept your argument that we are a theocracy because firstly their attempts were man made then we are a democratically elected body not a body run autocratically which all the others are.

................ so you still want to compare preudo-theocracies with yours......

There is no one person with any power in the Baha'i Faith whereas all that we have had previously is the papacy, the caliphate and the Imamate as well as individuals like the Dalai Lama all individuals with power. Next the Baha'i System is only for Baha'is and functions through consultation and majority rule not autocratic rule like the other systems.

........ which you havre already said WERE NOT THEOCRACIES!

Next the manner in which it must function, its duties and limitations have been set forward. It is a legislative body not an executive body and it can not interpret the Words of God like the other systems which is where they went astray because wrong interpretations made them miss important things like the return of Christ. If they had been Divine they would never have missed it.

A legislative body IS an executive body. Ha ha!..... you still want to compare systems which you declare as false with your 'perfect' system. So the other ones were not Divine, but yours is...... so yours is the true theocracy!

And the Baha'i system is a loving not dictatorial process based upon human rights. Even minorities are to be given special priorities in the Baha'i system.

So Bahai would be a sweet beautiful system of control and guidance so you can't, just can't stomach that horrible word! That is prejudice.

But again it is a System for only those who are Baha'is not the outside world and the Universal House of Justice never will have ever any jurisdiction over anyone but the Baha'i Community because that is its nature.

You had better read Bahauallah again........ He explains World Orders and Governments. But it's true that only Bahais would ave a vote, and verey possibly only Bahais would be in executrive posts.

So you see, there are numerous flaws in your argument about the Baha'i System being a theocracy when it's functions, and processes do not compare in any way to theocracies ......

.......... just a second..... you repeatedly say that there have never been any true theocracies.

..............because there are no individuals with any power and it runs on a principle of consultation and majority vote whereas those systems run mainly on autocratic rule. The final decision rests with one man whether it be the pope or the caliph or imam. We have no such person in the Baha'i Faith.

Stop knocking other imperfect systems and imperfect humans!
They being bad cannot make you good!
Stop casting your axe to right and left, trashing all around..... you would be better off just speaking for your faith, your religion.

You've forgotten a key rule already. One of the Hands of the Cause once told a meeting (Guildford?) about other religions, 'We don't knock them! They knock us!' How soon you've all forgotten that....... and how long before you forget more?

So you're that frightened about a single descriptive word.

 

[oldbadger]

Through the power of God He will establish it and what is God? God is love.

Bahauallah rates Love highly, but he places Love far beneath other all important characteristics. Please.... you should read Bahauallah more and the others less, methinks.

The Bible tells us that “God is Love”, and the Bible also says that God is Spirit. Baha'u'llah will bring about these conditions through love and spiritual means only.

That is not what Bahauallah says. Of course Love and spirit is essential, but other characteristics are required to form a Divinely Ordauined Order, a theocracy.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You quote a man or group of men who wrote that book in 110-120 AD, 80-90 years after Jesus died. John was no prophet, possibly a dignitary on Ephesus but certainly not John BarZebedee.

God is a beautiful calm sea lapping along a sandy shore in a wonderful setting sun.
God is a terrifying Tornado ripping up all and throwing it skywards, destroying all around.
Don't patronise humanity or God with such sugar coated descriptions?

 

[oldbadger]

@Sen McGlinn @oldbadger (and all others involved in this difference of opinion in this thread)

Here are the words of the Guardian in respect to the matter in dispute;

:

In the light of these words, it seems fully evident that the way to approach this instruction is in realizing the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh as an ever-growing organism destined to become something new and greater than any of the revealed religions of the past. Whereas former Faiths inspired hearts and illumined souls, they eventuated in formal religions with an ecclesiastical organization, creeds, rituals and churches, while the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, likewise renewing man’s spiritual life, will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state. By this manifestation of the Divine Will in a higher degree than in former ages, humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate and competitive institutions, and partake of a true civilization in which spiritual and social principles are at last reconciled as two aspects of one and the same Truth.

(30 November 1930)

The Bahá’ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well.

The Bahá’ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá’ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá’í State.

(19 April 1941)

By “Government” … is meant the executive body which will enforce the laws when the Bahá’í Faith has reached the point when it is recognized and accepted entirely by any particular nation.


Not only will the present-day Spiritual Assemblies be styled differently in future, but they will be enabled also to add to their present functions those powers, duties, and prerogatives necessitated by the recognition of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, not merely as one of the recognized religious systems of the world, but as the State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power. And as the Bahá’í Faith permeates the masses of the peoples of East and West, and its truth is embraced by the majority of the peoples of a number of the Sovereign States of the world, will the Universal House of Justice attain the plenitude of its power, and exercise as the supreme organ of the Bahá’í Commonwealth all the rights, the duties and responsibilities incumbent upon the world’s future superstate.


When I was a Baha'i these things were to be embraced as a good thing (not denied).

Here is one official Baha'i Source for the above quotes.

And there....... you have it.
...there was me, writing post after post, and you nail, screw and bolt the whole truth in a few quotes and lines.

I have copied every word.

 

[oldbadger]

Although the Guardian used the word theocracy he was not referring to the Baha'i System but failed man made theocracies...........

How can a theocracy, a system-ordained-by-God, be man-made?

That is a total contradiction of terms and definitions!

 

[loverofhumanity]

How can a theocracy, a system-ordained-by-God, be man-made?

That is a total contradiction of terms and definitions!

There is no such thing dear badger as a Divine System until now. So whatever one likes to call them they resulted in disaster because they were man made.

That is why I say Bahá'í is not a theocracy because a theocracy is a System where priests rule in the name of God and the Baha'i system was a System given by God not made up by priests.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Muddled thinking there.... right there!
So we've never had a true theocracy before, but Bahai hopes to have one in the future.
Your prejudice with the word causes you to reject it, again and again.
Call it another name....... but a rose is a rose, by any other name.


So they were pseudo-theocracies!
How can pseudo-theocracies have any impact on a real one?
Yours will just be far more dangerous if it rever comes about.
Humans will have left tjhe beauty of it far behind.


................ so you still want to compare preudo-theocracies with yours......


........ which you havre already said WERE NOT THEOCRACIES!


A legislative body IS an executive body. Ha ha!..... you still want to compare systems which you declare as false with your 'perfect' system. So the other ones were not Divine, but yours is...... so yours is the true theocracy!


So Bahai would be a sweet beautiful system of control and guidance so you can't, just can't stomach that horrible word! That is prejudice.


You had better read Bahauallah again........ He explains World Orders and Governments. But it's true that only Bahais would ave a vote, and verey possibly only Bahais would be in executrive posts.


.......... just a second..... you repeatedly say that there have never been any true theocracies.


Stop knocking other imperfect systems and imperfect humans!
They being bad cannot make you good!
Stop casting your axe to right and left, trashing all around..... you would be better off just speaking for your faith, your religion.

You've forgotten a key rule already. One of the Hands of the Cause once told a meeting (Guildford?) about other religions, 'We don't knock them! They knock us!' How soon you've all forgotten that....... and how long before you forget more?

So you're that frightened about a single descriptive word.

The happiness and well being of humanity is our goal. That is all.

"If the whole world should arise to deny this cause, we must not fight. Our only role is to spread the teachings. If it be accepted, all is well; if not, leave the people to God." (Abdul-Bahá'í)

So I won't fight with you just leave you to God.

 

[oldbadger]

There is no such thing dear badger as a Divine System until now. So whatever one likes to call them they resulted in disaster because they were man made.

Well, you've forgotten the Israelites, methinks.
And, of course, many in Shia Islam and Christianity would disagree, but during this thread I've taken your position, which is that Bahai system alone is ordained by God.
And you are wrong again about Bahai because as yet it has not blossomed into a fully developed system of control, it is still an embryo.
The thread title is all about what Bahai hopes for.

That is why I say Bahá'í is not a theocracy because a theocracy is a System where priests rule in the name of God and the Baha'i system was a System given by God not made up by priests.

I think that you have started wobbling..... systems ordained by God are theocracies.... you're falling back now on the 'ruled by priests' definition which is incomplete.

The thing is, you can call it anything you like, but given the evidence from this thread, esp @George-ananda 's,I think that most impartial witnesses would call it a 'would-be-theocracy', and a % of those would doubt that Bahai could do any better.........

 

[oldbadger]

The happiness and well being of humanity is our goal. That is all.

aaaah.... ....sweet sentiment, but huge countries have already declared avowed intentions to achieve just that. Nothing new there:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

"If the whole world should arise to deny this cause, we must not fight. Our only role is to spread the teachings. If it be accepted, all is well; if not, leave the people to God." (Abdul-Bahá'í)

Yes, but your idea of the Cause seems to differ from Bahauallah's, and your teachings as well.

So I won't fight with you just leave you to God.

....... you don't have the authority, the right or the choice about where I shall be left or found.

 

[George-ananda]

That is why I say Bahá'í is not a theocracy

The Guardian used the term 'Baha'i Theocracy' (it is not currently a theocracy but it aims to be)..

 

[oldbadger]

The Guardian used the term 'Baha'i Theocracy' (it is not currently a theocracy but it aims to be)..

This....^^^^

This whole thread came about because I mentioned it on a thread about historical Jesus..... I had veered off course somewhat. There was a challenge of sorts. And so I proposed this debate, as shown, here.

This thread prompted me to download the Bahauallah translations and look through them, and in a few days I have doubled/trebled my knowledge about his writings.

I tell you, I like Bahauallah's writings very much, but I don't think that Bahai-today reflects his books, letters and tablets to the same degree as he might have intended.

I don't doubt that he was a prophet, but I was once told that there have been 9000 prophets and we never even discovered the most humble and perfect ones. But I will read more of him from now on.... but never could be a Bahai today, because I want to fly free, a bit like Jonathan Livingston Seagull............

 

[CG Didymus]

Please note the title of the thread here.

It speaks of a world theocracy. Does the Baha'i Faith intend to become a world theocracy?

What is defined as a world theocracy in the letter from the House of Justice you quoted? Is it the Baha'i System?

"He thinks your question is well put: what the Guardian was referring to was the theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made, and yet, being partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muḥammad are in a sense theocracies. The Bahá’í theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself."

Although the Guardian used the word theocracy he was not referring to the Baha'i System but failed man made theocracies and as you can see above the Baha'i 'theocracy' is not to be identified with the Catholic Church or the Caliphate as the Baha'i system is divinely ordained not a 'world theocracy' as our thread creator entitled it inferring it will be oppressive like the caliphate and Catholic Church were.

Of course, the idea of the Baha'i Faith as a 'world theocracy' in the vein of the caliphate or church is rejected because it is 'Divine'. Man might oppress humanity but God does not.

This thread is attempting to say that the Baha'i Faith will be like the Catholic Church and the Caliphate with their Inquisitions and like the Ottoman Empire which ended up being corrupt to the core.

If the title read 'Is the Baha'i Faith a Divine Order revealed by God then that would be different but it's trying to cunningly associate our Administration with the cruelty and oppression of the Sultans and the popes and that we are headed in the same direction. Except it is continually being overlooked that this system is from God so it is a loving and perfect system as God is love and cannot end up like the Papacy or the Caliphate. This is the day that will not be followed by night.

That is what I am defending here as the Baha'i System is divinely ordained and so it will not have the failings of these man made systems.

But only the Universal House of Justice is free from error. So there's plenty of room for human error but the difference here is that the House of Justice can fix any problem because they can never become corrupted.

Did Baha'u'llah receive from God a plan to unite the whole world under a divinely ordained system? If so, what do you call it? Obviously, you don't like the word "theocracy".

You like to say that Christianity and Islam are "man-made" theocracies. So God didn't give Jesus or Muhammad guidance on how to have their followers govern themselves?

Then there is the Israelites. Priests, another word you don't like, but didn't God ordain the priesthood? Didn't God lay down the Law for the Hebrews directly from Moses? Didn't God "anoint" leaders for the people after Moses had died? Didn't He also send them prophets? So was this a theocracy or something different?

Now if it was from God, how did it go wrong? Did God give up on His people, because they failed to do what He told them to do? If He did, will He give up on Baha'is if they fail to do what He told them to do? Some of the people and some of the leaders in Israel turned away from God's plan and laws that He gave them, why? Because they were evil? Selfish? Power-hungry? Or they stopped believing in God and wanted to do some of the things forbidden by the Law?

No matter how you answer, the reality is that a God given plan had major failures. All because people could not live up to those laws given by God. What has changed? In all religions including the Baha'i Faith, there are people that do things that go against God's rules. And worse, already some Baha'is broke away and followed someone claiming to be the new Guardian. So no matter what God had planned, people find ways to mess it up, and I fear, that includes the Baha'i Faith.

 

[arthra]

Didymus,

Did Baha'u'llah receive from God a plan to unite the whole world under a divinely ordained system? If so, what do you call it? Obviously, you don't like the word "theocracy".

The problem is that up until the nineteenth century the only "theocracies" people had experience with were those of the Caliphate and the Catholic Church.. What we Baha'is envision is not along those lines where you have a centralised authority dictating what occurs:

"The Bahá’í theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself."

And note the following from the same Message:

"As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March 1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the relationship of the Bahá’í institutions to those of the country in which the Bahá’ís reside make it unthinkable that they would ever purpose to violate a country’s constitution or so to meddle in its political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of government."

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...se-of-justice/messages/#d=19950427_001&f=f1-7

Baha'i institutions are constituted democratically and based on consultation with their checks and balances built in. So the administration relates to issues that our communities deal with. The guidance is gradual and related to real world issues.

Didymus:

You like to say that Christianity and Islam are "man-made" theocracies. So God didn't give Jesus or Muhammad guidance on how to have their followers govern themselves?

That's correct ..especially with regard to both Christian and Muslim theocracies.

Didymus:

Then there is the Israelites. Priests, another word you don't like, but didn't God ordain the priesthood? Didn't God lay down the Law for the Hebrews directly from Moses? Didn't God "anoint" leaders for the people after Moses had died? Didn't He also send them prophets? So was this a theocracy or something different?

Yes Baha'is have no priests and no rites and rituals requiring them.

"We have no priests, therefore the service once rendered by priests to their religions is the service every single Bahá'í is expected to render individually to his religion. He must be the one who enlightens new souls, confirms them, heals the wounded and the weary upon the road of life, and gives them to quaff from the chalice of everlasting life the knowledge of the Manifestation of God in His Day."

(From a letter dated 5 July 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Benelux countries)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 325)

Prophets or Messengers ...yes! God ordained through the Messengers of God ordinances that were appropriate for times they lived in. So there has been a progressive revelation of God through the ages with appropriate changes in laws and ordinances to meet the needs of humanity.