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Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member

Elam is Shiraz where the Baha'i Faith began with the Declaration of the Bab. The prophecy talks about God establishing His Throne in Shiraz. We believe this refers to a new Revelation from God in Shiraz.

Now for the beast with the number 666. I was quite surprised by the answer at first but it makes a whole lot of sense when you realise it was the beginning of militant Islam which has been a scourge on humanity as bad as a beast.

Rev 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


"This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate." (He appeared in the year 666 AD)


666 The Beast

Regarding the Apocalypse of St. John, the beast
the numerical value of whose name is 666: the
intent is the year, inasmuch as that beast who is
the Umayyad king, appeared in the year 666 of the
Christian era. Abdu'l-Baha, a Tablet to an individual
believer.

Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", (Universal House of Justice - 1986)

In the sense that 666 symbolizes blasphemy, deception or
hypocrisy, the number can be applied to many personages
in history. But 'Abdu'l-Baha has explained [in the
Baha'i scriptures] that 666 applies to the first Umayyad
Caliph who came to power in the year 666 of the Christian
era.

Mu'awiyah, the first Umayyad Caliph, came to power during
the year 661-662 AD. But most authorities, in agreement
with the Gospel of Matthew, place the birth of Jesus
sometime prior to the death of Herod the Great, who died
during the year 4-5 BC. It is reasonable to believe,
therefore, that the span of time from the Birth of Jesus
until the first Umayyad Caliph was very close to 666
solar years.
Robert Riggs, _Apocalypse Unsealed_, pp. 169-170


The number 666 is, as Baha'is see it, a date, and refers
specifically to the year 666 AD. It is in this year that the
Bani-Umayyad dynasty (aka the "first beast") gained control over
Islam and corrupted it.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
On anti Christ. This is understood to be someone or/and a group of people who try to create another sect.

Bahá'í Definition by Abdul-Bahá.....

""Whenever discord prevails instead of unity, whenever hatred and antagonism take the place of love and fellowship, Antichrist reigns instead of Christ." (Abdu'l-Bahá, PUP 6)

Basically they try and create sects or schisms within a Faith or gather a following for themselves. The Umayyads were the anti Christ of the Muhammadan Revelation because they broke the laws of the Quran which state only defensive warfare and created false hadiths to change the religion into a militant offensive Faith.

Christianity

"They arise from within the church and depart from true fellowship and lead people out with them." McArthur Bible Study Notes)

In the Baha'i Faith they are called 'Covenant Breakers'. They try to assert an interpretation as authentic and create a sect. All religions have had an anti Christ. This is the main understanding by Baha'is of the term anti Christ.

Bahá'í Faith

From God Passes By - Shoghi Effendi we read:

"“Siyyid Muhammad, the Antichrist of the Bahá'í Revelation, even as Muhammad Sháh had been misled by the Antichrist of the Bábí Revelation, Hájí Mírzá Aqásí;”

Excerpt From: Effendi, Shoghi. “God Passes By.”

A link explaining how the Baha'i Faith is not the anti Christ

http://bahai-library.com/may_notes_antichrist


In the Expositors Bible Commentary these things also come under ant Christ as they are anti God sentiments...

"The "flesh" not only becomes the basis for rebellion against God and for despising his law but also connotes all that is materialistic, egocentric, exploitative, and selfish. It is at the root of racism, sexism, love of injustice, despising the poor, neglecting the weak and helpless, and every unrighteous practice.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Of course treasure trove law is enforced in a secular society! It is in England and is very precise. Our Senior Courts deliberate upon such matters.
But in a Bahai World Houses of Justice would judge these matters? Theocracy!
So Houses of Justice will not just deal with matters spiritual and religious, will they?
Houses of Justice will be present Locally, Nationally and Universally to control everything

First of all the treasure trove law you refer to isn't enforced as yet and would not be until a future Baha'i community had the framework and proper social supports ... at this writing it would be from our view quite a long way off.. and the Universal House of Justice would have to deliberate on the execution of such a law and how it would be implemented. The law itself is a way of sharing the wealth from discoveries so that one person doesn.t hoard the treasure for themselves.

Should a treasure be found, one third
thereof is the right of the discoverer, and the other
two thirds should be expended by the men of
the House of Justice for the welfare of all people.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 137)

Another reason this law would be in the far future from now is that currently our Local Spiritual Assemblies that are elected annually serve Baha'i communities in other areas such as building communities and focusing of Baha'i law for marriage and divorce as our laws are different from civil laws ... We adhere to civil laws as well but go further with our own which include minimum age... parental consents, a year of separation and so on.

As to any identification with "theocracy" I think the following is point should be emphasized here:

"No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam -- none of these can be identified or be said to conform with the Administrative Order which the master-hand of its perfect Architect has fashioned."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 152)
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
the treasure trove law you refer to isn't enforced as yet and would not be until a future Baha'i community had the framework and proper social supports

There's a difficulty here Arthra: Abdu'l-Baha writes that

" ...in every village a Board (anjoman) should be established among the mature persons [`uqalaa’] of that village. That village should be under the control of that Board. Likewise a public treasury [makhzin] should be founded and a notary appointed. At the time of the harvest, with the approval of that board, a determined percentage of all harvests should be appropriated for the treasury. This treasury has seven revenues: tithes, taxes on animals, wealth without inheritors, anything found which has no owner, a third of any buried treasure that is found, a third of minerals, and donations."

This is in his letter to Mrs. Parsons, see
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/socialism/

Therefore Abdu'l-Baha, apparently, did not interpre the Aqdas law as actually giving 2/3rds of treasure trove to the Bahai House of Justice. How he arrived at his reading is a mystery to me, but we can hardly point to the Aqdas law on treasure trove without also pointing to Abdu'l-Baha's letter, and a talk to the socialists club in Montreal, reported in Star of the West 13:9 (1922) page 227. The latter is not authenticated, but says "if any treasures shall be found on the land they should be devoted to this storehouse."
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi old badger. The thing about treasure trove is like any Bahá'í law. It only applies to Baha'is but say if it happened now Baha'is would be bound by the laws of the land so it's a ute point I think.
I disagree........
It does not apply to Bahais today, or tomorrow.
Bahais will follow the laws that exist today, wherever they are!
The day that Bahai Treasure Trove law applies is the day that a Bahai Theocracy will exist in that land, or in the World.
As soon as I saw that law I knew that Bahai hopes for and would be a divine governing body, a theocracy. :shrug:

Ok women on Houses of Justice.
This would need a separate thread. It's not the same-old same-old moan about exclusion from the UHJ, it's to do with all Houses of Justice. Would need another thread.

I note your point that as Bahai grows so it will attract criticism, contention and even conflict. So that's the same as JWs or any other religion which happens to grow could expect.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
"The cause of peace is a very great cause; it is the Cause of God, and all the forces of the world are opposed to it. ..............

Peace..... the cause of God?

God is the beauty of a falcon in flight.
God is the shock of a falcon's stoop.
God is the terror of a falcon tearing flesh.
God is the peace of a falcon in sleep.

Peace can only exist in the mind and heart of a soul who has found the way, even when all around is shrieking agonised terror, hatred and fear, or even when all around is tranquility, beauty and calm.

God is both situations. God is all. :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
First of all the treasure trove law you refer to isn't enforced as yet and would not be until a future Baha'i community had the framework and proper social supports ... at this writing it would be from our view quite a long way off.. and the Universal House of Justice would have to deliberate on the execution of such a law and how it would be implemented. The law itself is a way of sharing the wealth from discoveries so that one person doesn.t hoard the treasure for themselves.
Yes! True!
And the day it becomes Bahai law then that will be the day that Bahai governs that area, or country, or universally.
A Bahai Theocracy would have been born!
Which is what this thread is seeking to discover.

That's why that particular law was so important to this thread!
There will be others but I only needed one example. :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There's a difficulty here Arthra: Abdu'l-Baha writes that

" ...in every village a Board (anjoman) should be established among the mature persons [`uqalaa’] of that village. That village should be under the control of that Board. Likewise a public treasury [makhzin] should be founded and a notary appointed. At the time of the harvest, with the approval of that board, a determined percentage of all harvests should be appropriated for the treasury. This treasury has seven revenues: tithes, taxes on animals, wealth without inheritors, anything found which has no owner, a third of any buried treasure that is found, a third of minerals, and donations."

This is in his letter to Mrs. Parsons, see
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/socialism/

Therefore Abdu'l-Baha, apparently, did not interpre the Aqdas law as actually giving 2/3rds of treasure trove to the Bahai House of Justice. How he arrived at his reading is a mystery to me, but we can hardly point to the Aqdas law on treasure trove without also pointing to Abdu'l-Baha's letter, and a talk to the socialists club in Montreal, reported in Star of the West 13:9 (1922) page 227. The latter is not authenticated, but says "if any treasures shall be found on the land they should be devoted to this storehouse."

This is a good reason for individual investigations to go to the Prophet's writings before all else.

But Abdul Baha's letter shows another example of how, one day, in a Bahai Majority area, Bahai would govern; and since Bahais would regard such governing bodies as Divine, then that kis what could be described in our language today as a theocracy.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Yes! True!
And the day it becomes Bahai law then that will be the day that Bahai governs that area, or country, or universally.
A Bahai Theocracy would have been born!
Which is what this thread is seeking to discover.

That's why that particular law was so important to this thread!
There will be others but I only needed one example. :)


Actually badger... there are Baha'i laws that are enforced and they concern mostly marriage and divorce issues.. so I would venture that if a "treasure trove" principle were to be enforced among Baha'is it would be no more significant... Baha'i laws also have an important qualifier we call "consultation":

Bahá'u'lláh has established consultation as one of the
fundamental principles of His Faith and has exhorted the
believers to "take counsel together in all matters". He describes
consultation as "the lamp of guidance which leadeth the way"
and as "the bestower of understanding". Shoghi Effendi states
that the "principle of consultation ... constitutes one of
the basic laws" of the Bahá'í Administrative Order.


~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 190
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This is a good reason for individual investigations to go to the Prophet's writings before all else.

But Abdul Baha's letter shows another example of how, one day, in a Bahai Majority area, Bahai would govern; and since Bahais would regard such governing bodies as Divine, then that kis what could be described in our language today as a theocracy.

The thing that's most hard to convey here on a forum is the spirit of the Faith. It is not a domineering, authoritarian, dictatorial atmosphere.

You should be able to glean from these passages that this spirit is one of love not domination and control. Decision making is done very differently to today's governments and are not made arbitrarily.

These are some of the rules of the spirit in which consultation and decision making take place.

"The first condition is absolute love and harmony amongst the members of the assembly. They must be wholly free from estrangement and must manifest in themselves the Unity of God, for they are the waves of one sea, the drops of one river, the stars of one heaven, the rays of one sun, the trees of one orchard, the flowers of one garden. Should harmony of thought and absolute unity be nonexistent, that gathering shall be dispersed and that assembly be brought to naught.

In short, whatsoever thing is arranged in harmony and with love and purity of motive, its result is light, and should the least trace of estrangement prevail the result shall be darkness upon darkness…. If this be so regarded, that assembly shall be of God, but otherwise it shall lead to coolness and alienation that proceed from the Evil One

They must in every matter search out the truth and not insist upon their own opinion, for stubbornness and persistence in one’s views will lead ultimately to discord and wrangling and the truth will remain hidden. The honoured members must with all freedom express their own thoughts, and it is in no wise permissible for one to belittle the thought of another, nay, he must with moderation set forth the truth, and should differences of opinion arise a majority of voices must prevail, and all must obey and submit to the majority. (Selections from the Writimgs of Abdul-Bahá)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Actually badger... there are Baha'i laws that are enforced and they concern mostly marriage and divorce issues.. so I would venture that if a "treasure trove" principle were to be enforced among Baha'is it would be no more significant... Baha'i laws also have an important qualifier we call "consultation":

Bahá'u'lláh has established consultation as one of the
fundamental principles of His Faith and has exhorted the
believers to "take counsel together in all matters". He describes
consultation as "the lamp of guidance which leadeth the way"
and as "the bestower of understanding". Shoghi Effendi states
that the "principle of consultation ... constitutes one of
the basic laws" of the Bahá'í Administrative Order.


~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 190
Enforce? No you don't. I don't know which country you are in but I'll bet that yor Assembly does not hold any warrants.
All you can do is omit, eject, ban, unenroll etc.

And if you tried to make Treasure trove judgements at this time your assembly would be committing various offences.

Bite the bullet, arthra! :) Just accept that Bahai hopes for a Bahai World, with Bahai government and laws. A Bahai theocracy.

I think thast yuou should enquire of your highest assembly, putting the 'now' answers to one side and looking for the 'in a Bahai World' responses.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The thing that's most hard to convey here on a forum is the spirit of the Faith. It is not a domineering, authoritarian, dictatorial atmosphere.

You should be able to glean from these passages that this spirit is one of love not domination and control. Decision making is done very differently to today's governments and are not made arbitrarily.

These are some of the rules of the spirit in which consultation and decision making take place.

"The first condition is absolute love and harmony amongst the members of the assembly. They must be wholly free from estrangement and must manifest in themselves the Unity of God, for they are the waves of one sea, the drops of one river, the stars of one heaven, the rays of one sun, the trees of one orchard, the flowers of one garden. Should harmony of thought and absolute unity be nonexistent, that gathering shall be dispersed and that assembly be brought to naught.

In short, whatsoever thing is arranged in harmony and with love and purity of motive, its result is light, and should the least trace of estrangement prevail the result shall be darkness upon darkness…. If this be so regarded, that assembly shall be of God, but otherwise it shall lead to coolness and alienation that proceed from the Evil One

They must in every matter search out the truth and not insist upon their own opinion, for stubbornness and persistence in one’s views will lead ultimately to discord and wrangling and the truth will remain hidden. The honoured members must with all freedom express their own thoughts, and it is in no wise permissible for one to belittle the thought of another, nay, he must with moderation set forth the truth, and should differences of opinion arise a majority of voices must prevail, and all must obey and submit to the majority. (Selections from the Writimgs of Abdul-Bahá)

I wrote that it is surely a good idea to go to the Prophet's writings before all else, but you don't. That's up to you, but after this debate in any future investigation I will go to Bahauallah and none other.

What I've found hard to convey to Bahais here is simply that 'Bahai' hopes for a Bahai World with Bahai control, a theocracy, and it seems that there is so much prejudice for that word that you shy away from it as if it is dreadful and not a decent enough word for Bahai. That's your prejudgement.

However humbled, prayerful, unified, peaceful and infallible your Houses of Justice may be in this future Bahai World, if Bahai is big enough for them to control the environment, Law, Education, Puiblic Services, etc........ then it will be a humbled, prayerful, unified, peaceful and infallible theocracy.

Well...... that must be the Bahai prayer.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I wrote that it is surely a good idea to go to the Prophet's writings before all else, but you don't. That's up to you, but after this debate in any future investigation I will go to Bahauallah and none other.

What I've found hard to convey to Bahais here is simply that 'Bahai' hopes for a Bahai World with Bahai control, a theocracy, and it seems that there is so much prejudice for that word that you shy away from it as if it is dreadful and not a decent enough word for Bahai. That's your prejudgement.

However humbled, prayerful, unified, peaceful and infallible your Houses of Justice may be in this future Bahai World, if Bahai is big enough for them to control the environment, Law, Education, Puiblic Services, etc........ then it will be a humbled, prayerful, unified, peaceful and infallible theocracy.

Well...... that must be the Bahai prayer.


All we're interested in is creating a better world free from war and for human happiness to be everywhere. We have no interest whatsoever in the things you are claiming.

The Baha'i Faith is a means to an end - world peace and unity. To create virtuous upright people. There is no political ambitions at all. We are a spiritual movement come to educate the soul and heart not own and control people.

Our duty is to rejuvenate the world spiritually. To bring back good character and virtues to our children and youth.

If you think that our goal is to rule the world then you know absolutely nothing about the Baha'i Faith whatsoever.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
All we're interested in is creating a better world free from war and for human happiness to be everywhere. We have no interest whatsoever in the things you are claiming.

The Baha'i Faith is a means to an end - world peace and unity. To create virtuous upright people. There is no political ambitions at all. We are a spiritual movement come to educate the soul and heart not own and control people.

Our duty is to rejuvenate the world spiritually. To bring back good character and virtues to our children and youth.

If you think that our goal is to rule the world then you know absolutely nothing about the Baha'i Faith whatsoever.
So.... how will Baha'i achieve this peace and unity if it does not control.....?
 

arthra

Baha'i
So.... how will Baha'i achieve this peace and unity if it does not control.....?

We're not out to "control" badger.. We're out to educate and inspire maybe but not control. ;-)

And if you tried to make Treasure trove judgements at this time your assembly would be committing various offences.

We're not out to commit offences badger... Baha'i laws are for Baha'is only... I think you have some kind of apprehension about us that maybe misplaced.

Obedience to government even when it's at our expense is very much our principle..so if there are laws against our holding Feasts and having an elected administrative order we suspend them until we are allowed to do it!

"...each and every one is required to show obedience, submission and loyalty towards his own government. Today no state in the world is in a condition of peace or tranquillity, for security and trust have vanished from among the people. Both the governed and the governors are alike in danger."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 293
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
We're not out to "control" badger.. We're out to educate and inspire maybe but not control. ;-)
Arthra...... in your last post to me you explained that you ENFORCE marriage and divorce laws within your communities. In this post you want to tell me 'we're not out to control...' !

Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World. Don't tell me that he was wrong.

We're not out to commit offences badger... Baha'i laws are for Baha'is only... I think you have some kind of apprehension about us that maybe misplaced.
No. No apprehensions for myself in my lifetrime, nor even for my offspring for many generations to come, if ever.

Some individual Bahais have committed offences, you know......
But obviously not Bahai bodies or assemblies.

Obedience to government even when it's at our expense is very much our principle..so if there are laws against our holding Feasts and having an elected administrative order we suspend them until we are allowed to do it!
You know that this thread is about the far distant future.
You know that.
So to refer to how you obey existing government's laws is irrelevant.


"...each and every one is required to show obedience, submission and loyalty towards his own government. Today no state in the world is in a condition of peace or tranquillity, for security and trust have vanished from among the people. Both the governed and the governors are alike in danger."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 293
Irrelevant to this thread.
How many times must I repeat this fact?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Through love.
...through love......
Really?
Right....... no more control then. Repeal your rules about homosexuals holding Bahai Offices. Repeal your laws about women sitting in highest offices. Repeal your laws about women officials acting for Houses of Justice in certain duties. Repeal all your rules and laws, loverofhumanity...... just love everybody.
Let's see a bit of love.

Earlier on you asked what the world's governments were doing about Syria I remember?
Just exactly what did you have in mind?
No control needed then....... :shrug:
Do you want them to achieve a solution through just love?.....
You spoke about military might, didn't you?
Do you want everyone else to do the dirty work while you in sacred critique of all?

That is not 'straight-talk'.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
...through love......
Really?
Right....... no more control then. Repeal your rules about homosexuals holding Bahai Offices. Repeal your laws about women sitting in highest offices. Repeal your laws about women officials acting for Houses of Justice in certain duties. Repeal all your rules and laws, loverofhumanity...... just love everybody.
Let's see a bit of love.

Earlier on you asked what the world's governments were doing about Syria I remember?
Just exactly what did you have in mind?
No control needed then....... :shrug:
Do you want them to achieve a solution through just love?.....
You spoke about military might, didn't you?
Do you want everyone else to do the dirty work while you in sacred critique of all?

That is not 'straight-talk'.

Love is the answer. The world, in order to have a conscience needs to have love for each and every human being. The love of all humanity can bring wars to a stop.

If Russia, China, America and other nations had true love for humanity, they could put an end to this war by not supplying weapons for a start and that would force the parties to the negotiating table.

Women do occupy the highest offices but Baha'u'llah has said that the Universal House of Justice is a function only for men. In our world woman has been given the duty of child bearing and motherhood, that doesn't men that because men cannot have babies that there is not equality of status or that men are being discriminated against.

Equality of status does not mean equality of function.

There is equality of status between men and women in the Baha'i Faith but not in function as is also witnessed in nature . That is not discriminatory just because nature has defined different roles for men and women and so in the spiritual nature, God has ordained a difference function for the sexes but that does not affect status, only function.

There is no law about a person who may have homosexual tendencies occupying any Baha'i position. That is not a valid argument of any sort.

A person may be elected onto local national or the Universal House of Justice. A counsellor or Auxilliary board member may be appointed but the criteria is spiritual qualities and a well trained mind.

Only love can ever hope to change this world. Nothing short of love can succeed. No amount of Administration, governance or laws will in the end create a happy and prosperous society.

"“Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdul

Love is the greatest law. Love is the only means for true happiness. Love is what progresses Civilisation.


“Love is heaven's kindly light, the Holy Spirit's eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God's revelation unto man"

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Selections from the Writings

The reason the Baha'i Faith is here is to bring back love to the world.
The Holy Spirit's existence is itself love.
 
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