Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

[oldbadger]

Love is the answer. The world, in order to have a conscience needs to have love for each and every human being. The love of all humanity can bring wars to a stop.

If Russia, China, America and other nations had true love for humanity, they could put an end to this war by not supplying weapons for a start and that would force the parties to the negotiating table.

Women do occupy the highest offices but Baha'u'llah has said that the Universal House of Justice is a function only for men. In our world woman has been given the duty of child bearing and motherhood, that doesn't men that because men cannot have babies that there is not equality of status or that men are being discriminated against.

Equality of status does not mean equality of function.

There is equality of status between men and women in the Baha'i Faith but not in function as is also witnessed in nature . That is not discriminatory just because nature has defined different roles for men and women and so in the spiritual nature, God has ordained a difference function for the sexes but that does not affect status, only function.

There is no law about a person who may have homosexual tendencies occupying any Baha'i position. That is not a valid argument of any sort.

A person may be elected onto local national or the Universal House of Justice. A counsellor or Auxilliary board member may be appointed but the criteria is spiritual qualities and a well trained mind.

Only love can ever hope to change this world. Nothing short of love can succeed. No amount of Administration, governance or laws will in the end create a happy and prosperous society.

"“Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdul

Love is the greatest law. Love is the only means for true happiness. Love is what progresses Civilisation.


“Love is heaven's kindly light, the Holy Spirit's eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God's revelation unto man"

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Selections from the Writings

The reason the Baha'i Faith is here is to bring back love to the world.
The Holy Spirit's existence is itself love.

Love, love will save humanity, eh?
Bahaullah wrote that love is the emotional madness, in a way.
Tell me, what love has Baha'i extended towards humanity that many other faiths have not?

Your point about homosexual tendencies not disbaring Baha's is a cop out.

Your point about female officials needs debating, but not on this thread. Needs another.

I am on a mobile so would need to respond fully later.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World.

Do you have a source for that ??

 

[oldbadger]

Do you have a source for that ??

First........
Please confirm that you have never, ever, seen any writings of Bahauallah's which covered his wishes for a Bahai divinely ordained World order with laws, local national and worldy controls, in taxation, education, civil services, policing et al.

I need your confirmation that you, an experienced Bahai, never knew about any of this.

 

[CG Didymus]

Elam is Shiraz where the Baha'i Faith began with the Declaration of the Bab. The prophecy talks about God establishing His Throne in Shiraz. We believe this refers to a new Revelation from God in Shiraz.

Now for the beast with the number 666. I was quite surprised by the answer at first but it makes a whole lot of sense when you realise it was the beginning of militant Islam which has been a scourge on humanity as bad as a beast.

Rev 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


"This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate." (He appeared in the year 666 AD)


666 The Beast

Regarding the Apocalypse of St. John, the beast
the numerical value of whose name is 666: the
intent is the year, inasmuch as that beast who is
the Umayyad king, appeared in the year 666 of the
Christian era. Abdu'l-Baha, a Tablet to an individual
believer.

Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", (Universal House of Justice - 1986)

In the sense that 666 symbolizes blasphemy, deception or
hypocrisy, the number can be applied to many personages
in history. But 'Abdu'l-Baha has explained [in the
Baha'i scriptures] that 666 applies to the first Umayyad
Caliph who came to power in the year 666 of the Christian
era.

Mu'awiyah, the first Umayyad Caliph, came to power during
the year 661-662 AD. But most authorities, in agreement
with the Gospel of Matthew, place the birth of Jesus
sometime prior to the death of Herod the Great, who died
during the year 4-5 BC. It is reasonable to believe,
therefore, that the span of time from the Birth of Jesus
until the first Umayyad Caliph was very close to 666
solar years.
Robert Riggs, _Apocalypse Unsealed_, pp. 169-170


The number 666 is, as Baha'is see it, a date, and refers
specifically to the year 666 AD. It is in this year that the
Bani-Umayyad dynasty (aka the "first beast") gained control over
Islam and corrupted it.

One verse in Jeremiah? Is God's throne established in Elam? How about all the other things Jeremiah said about Elam? It's very similar to what Christians did with Bethlehem. Maybe Jesus was born there, but who knows for sure. Too many Bible verses can be applied to most anything when taken out of context.

And the number of the beast being changes to a year and to a Islamic leader? What does that have to do with the focus of the Book of Revelation? How does this Caliph tie in to the rest of the vision of the end times of the Book of Revelation? Too many "proofs" that Christians used were one verse taken out of context to show that Jesus was the Messiah. Now the Baha'is are doing the same thing. You change the meaning of the NT story to fit your religion...Like Jesus didn't rise from the dead physically. Christianity is nothing if he didn't. You make the "spirit of truth" Baha'u'llah when in the Book of Acts it says the Spirit came upon the believers and they started speaking in other tongues. And now the beast is a Caliph from 1300 years ago?

If there is only one God and if all religions came from that one God and are a continuation of the same teachings from that one God then God hasn't done a good job. He has been misleading. He has changed His teachings from one religion to another. He gave Laws to the Jews and said they are everlasting and then annulled the Laws for Christians. Then He came back with more Laws to Muhammad. He wants the world united under one faith? If he hadn't created Islam, Christianity would have taken over the world.

But none of His religions are perfect. They all have gone through so many changes that who knows what the original message was? God has told people when to pray, how to pray, where to pray... in several different ways. He has given his Laws, but then leaves them to imperfect humans to apply them and interpret them? And he gave the right to imperfect humans to punish offenders of His Law... even with death?

So what does God have planned now? Love offenders? Let a secular government rule? Why would it be fair and just? Why would it not exploit? Why wouldn't it make laws that went contrary to the Baha'i Faith? And then what would you do? Obey the "just" government?

If God is going to establish His Law and His plan for governing people then He's the authority. He's the one that has the final say. If He's not in control, then what good is another religion that has no power over the selfish and evil and power hungry people of the world? You're going to love them to death?

You think the nations are going to agree to disarm? Why? If they do, why wouldn't some other group of evil people rise up and take over control? We can't un-invent weapons can we? So someone, somewhere is going to have guns and bombs. Even if all we have is rocks, sticks and fists, some one will use them. So how you going to control the evil ones that want power? How you going to control those that want to sell drugs and alcohol and sex? How you going to stop society of imperfect people from wanting those things? You need to enforce the laws.

So if the Baha'is don't have a police force and use only love, then the imperfect secular leaders will be the enforcers? And they won't exploit their position of power? And if the Baha'is do have to use force to subdue the evil doers, then how is it different then Judaism and Islam that used to stone offenders to death, or cut off their hands or some other horrible punishment? And if God is real, why can't He enforce His own rules?

In the past He supposedly flooded them. He sent lightning bolts and fire from the sky to fry them or some plague to kill them off. He's the creator and ruler of the universe. He knows who the bad ones are. He controls who lives and who dies. Why can't He kill them, or prevent them from even being born... or show the light and give them the love to change their hearts? If "love" is going to change anybody, it better be from Him. If justice is going to come it better be from Him. If He is real, He ought to start acting like it and show Himself and speak from heaven and take control... 'cause leaving it to us has never worked. We'll find some way to mess it up.

Anyway, as you can tell, I'm a little concerned over putting my trust in people that say they have a message from God. Of all the people I don't trust, you guys are one of my favorites. Good luck on taking over the world. No, I mean... Good luck on promoting world peace. Yeah, that's better.

 

[oldbadger]

One verse in Jeremiah? Is God's throne established in Elam? How about all the other things Jeremiah said about Elam? It's very similar to what Christians did with Bethlehem. Maybe Jesus was born there, but who knows for sure. Too many Bible verses can be applied to most anything when taken out of context.

And the number of the beast being changes to a year and to a Islamic leader? What does that have to do with the focus of the Book of Revelation? How does this Caliph tie in to the rest of the vision of the end times of the Book of Revelation? Too many "proofs" that Christians used were one verse taken out of context to show that Jesus was the Messiah. Now the Baha'is are doing the same thing. You change the meaning of the NT story to fit your religion...Like Jesus didn't rise from the dead physically. Christianity is nothing if he didn't. You make the "spirit of truth" Baha'u'llah when in the Book of Acts it says the Spirit came upon the believers and they started speaking in other tongues. And now the beast is a Caliph from 1300 years ago?

If there is only one God and if all religions came from that one God and are a continuation of the same teachings from that one God then God hasn't done a good job. He has been misleading. He has changed His teachings from one religion to another. He gave Laws to the Jews and said they are everlasting and then annulled the Laws for Christians. Then He came back with more Laws to Muhammad. He wants the world united under one faith? If he hadn't created Islam, Christianity would have taken over the world.

But none of His religions are perfect. They all have gone through so many changes that who knows what the original message was? God has told people when to pray, how to pray, where to pray... in several different ways. He has given his Laws, but then leaves them to imperfect humans to apply them and interpret them? And he gave the right to imperfect humans to punish offenders of His Law... even with death?

So what does God have planned now? Love offenders? Let a secular government rule? Why would it be fair and just? Why would it not exploit? Why wouldn't it make laws that went contrary to the Baha'i Faith? And then what would you do? Obey the "just" government?

If God is going to establish His Law and His plan for governing people then He's the authority. He's the one that has the final say. If He's not in control, then what good is another religion that has no power over the selfish and evil and power hungry people of the world? You're going to love them to death?

You think the nations are going to agree to disarm? Why? If they do, why wouldn't some other group of evil people rise up and take over control? We can't un-invent weapons can we? So someone, somewhere is going to have guns and bombs. Even if all we have is rocks, sticks and fists, some one will use them. So how you going to control the evil ones that want power? How you going to control those that want to sell drugs and alcohol and sex? How you going to stop society of imperfect people from wanting those things? You need to enforce the laws.

So if the Baha'is don't have a police force and use only love, then the imperfect secular leaders will be the enforcers? And they won't exploit their position of power? And if the Baha'is do have to use force to subdue the evil doers, then how is it different then Judaism and Islam that used to stone offenders to death, or cut off their hands or some other horrible punishment? And if God is real, why can't He enforce His own rules?

In the past He supposedly flooded them. He sent lightning bolts and fire from the sky to fry them or some plague to kill them off. He's the creator and ruler of the universe. He knows who the bad ones are. He controls who lives and who dies. Why can't He kill them, or prevent them from even being born... or show the light and give them the love to change their hearts? If "love" is going to change anybody, it better be from Him. If justice is going to come it better be from Him. If He is real, He ought to start acting like it and show Himself and speak from heaven and take control... 'cause leaving it to us has never worked. We'll find some way to mess it up.

Anyway, as you can tell, I'm a little concerned over putting my trust in people that say they have a message from God. Of all the people I don't trust, you guys are one of my favorites. Good luck on taking over the world. No, I mean... Good luck on promoting world peace. Yeah, that's better.

Interesting points......
One problem for Baha'i biblical references and calculations to support their faith is that they cherry pick the bits that they like, and reject other passages.
It is either all trustworthy, or not.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

First........
Please confirm that you have never, ever, seen any writings of Bahauallah's which covered his wishes for a Bahai divinely ordained World order with laws, local national and worldy controls, in taxation, education, civil services, policing et al.

I need your confirmation that you, an experienced Bahai, never knew about any of this.

You moved the goal posts. I responded to your claim that "Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World." I do not know of any such descriptions. Apparently you cannot identify your source, which I understand. Jounalist's ethics.

Baha'u'llah was all in favour of good just government, but that is a different thing entirely. He usually expresses this in terms of monarchy, but he favoured a parliamentary constititional monarchy. So when he quotes and endorses "render unto Caesar"

=======================
Who is the Spirit (Jesus)--may peace be upon Him--was asked: "O Spirit of God! Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?" And He made reply: "Yea, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." He forbade it not. These two sayings are, in the estimation of men of insight, one and the same, for if that which belonged to Caesar had not come from God, He would have forbidden it. ( http://bahai-library.com/bahaullah_epistle_son_wolf#89 )
=======================

that should be correlated with his approval of democracy:

++++++++++++++++++++
We have also heard that thou {Queen Victoria} hast entrusted the reins of counsel into the hands of the representatives of the people. Thou, indeed, hast done well, for thereby the foundations of the edifice of thine affairs will be strengthened, and the hearts of all that are beneath thy shadow, whether high or low, will be tranquillized. It behoveth them, however, to be trustworthy among His servants, and to regard themselves as the representatives of all that dwell on earth. This is what counselleth them, in this Tablet, He Who is the Ruler, the All-Wise. And if any one of them directeth himself towards the Assembly, let him turn his eyes unto the Supreme Horizon, and say: "O my God! I ask Thee, by Thy most glorious Name, to aid me in that which will cause the affairs of Thy servants to prosper, and Thy cities to flourish. Thou, indeed, hast power over all things!" Blessed is he that entereth the Assembly for the sake of God, and judgeth between men with pure justice. He, indeed, is of the blissful.

O ye the elected representatives of the people in every land! Take ye counsel together, and let your concern be only for that which profiteth mankind and bettereth the condition thereof, if ye be of them that scan heedfully. ( http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/slh/slh.html#90 )
++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Sen McGlinn]

if the Baha'is don't have a police force and use only love, then the imperfect secular leaders will be the enforcers? And they won't exploit their position of power?

(a) The Bahai community does not have a police force, and cannot have one.
(b) Society needs enforcers, because while I pay my taxes willingly, I would be less willing if I thought other people were not paying theirs. We set up and sustain governments to provide collective security, but also to provide us with the service of nforcement and coercion, because otherwise we would all face the freeloader problem.
THEREFORE
the separation of church and state is a logical necessity for the Bahai vision of a prosperous, well governed and fair global society, as well as being explitly endorsed as part of that vision.

How do societies at present stop leaders exploiting their positions? By laws, by enforcement, and by democratic accountability via both the media and the ballot box. But the hard restraints on corruption are inadequate, one also needs an ethic of public service, and that is where the various communities in civil society come in. They proclaim high ethical standards, provide role models, and raise children in families and face-to-face communities that foster the ideal of altruistic public service. I quoted above (post #146 ) a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave at the home of Monsieur Dreyfus in which he talks about the synergy between the fear of God and the fear of getting caught, as a way of keeping society's leaders on the straight and narrow. It deserves careful thought

 

[oldbadger]

You moved the goal posts. I responded to your claim that "Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World." I do not know of any such descriptions.

Thankyou. A straight answer. You never knew.......
So you need me to teach you about writings of Bahauallah's which showed strong emphasis for Bahai control in a Bahai World?

I'll be back with some tomorrow. And then, please don't tell me that you knew about such writings or I'll be calling out 'timewaster!'.

"Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World."

 

[CG Didymus]

Interesting points......
One problem for Baha'i biblical references and calculations to support their faith is that they cherry pick the bits that they like, and reject other passages.
It is either all trustworthy, or not.

Isn't it amazing how people can prove their religion by quoting a verse here and a verse there from the Bible.

(a) The Bahai community does not have a police force, and cannot have one.
(b) Society needs enforcers, because while I pay my taxes willingly, I would be less willing if I thought other people were not paying theirs. We set up and sustain governments to provide collective security, but also to provide us with the service of nforcement and coercion, because otherwise we would all face the freeloader problem.
THEREFORE
the separation of church and state is a logical necessity for the Bahai vision of a prosperous, well governed and fair global society, as well as being explitly endorsed as part of that vision.

How do societies at present stop leaders exploiting their positions? By laws, by enforcement, and by democratic accountability via both the media and the ballot box. But the hard restraints on corruption are inadequate, one also needs an ethic of public service, and that is where the various communities in civil society come in. They proclaim high ethical standards, provide role models, and raise children in families and face-to-face communities that foster the ideal of altruistic public service. I quoted above (post #146 ) a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave at the home of Monsieur Dreyfus in which he talks about the synergy between the fear of God and the fear of getting caught, as a way of keeping society's leaders on the straight and narrow. It deserves careful thought

In the U.S., politicians, religious leaders, CEO's all get caught cheating the system. Who doesn't lie about their hours at work or break a traffic law. There isn't that much fear about getting caught. There's so many burglaries. So many drug dealings. With all the police shootings there probably is some fear about getting shot, but it's not the criminals that are scared. I would not doubt that there's more fear in an Islamic state. But is the punishment in Islam always just and fair? Probably not. Not if it's left to people. If you believe the Bible, then it's filled with times that God did pass judgement and carried out the punishment. But are those stories for real? Did God obliterate Sodom and Gomorrah? Did He flood the whole world? And was He successful in eradicating evil? No. So even with God telling, allegedly, what not to do and then, supposedly, dealing out the punishment, people don't seem to fear breaking His laws. Why would they fear other people?

 

[oldbadger]

Isn't it amazing how people can prove their religion by quoting a verse here and a verse there from the Bible.

Yes. Bahais do not believe in a 'Jesus Son of God' and so cannot believe in all of the bible, but still want to quote bits tghat they like.

And they move goal-posts in every direction....... although Bahauallah writes about a Bahai World with Bahai Laws and controls, Bahais insist that 'Bahai' doesn't get involved in that at all. Of course it doesn't just now, but would love to if it could recruit enough Bahais!

And you point about corruption in positions of power is true. Power corrupts.......

 

[oldbadger]

You moved the goal posts...............................

I don't move goal posts.
Here comes a brief selection of Bahauallah's emphasis.
"Bahauallah was most emphatic in his descriptions about Bahai control in a Bahai World."
The following paragraphs are offered as a small selection of writings where Bahauallah emphatically writes down the Bahai God's legislation for the World in a progessive application and gradual revelation:
The next two paragraphs are not written by Bahauallah. Somebody is explaining the Authority of the UHJ................:
...............................Although the Universal House of Justice is explicitly authorized to change or repeal its own legislation as conditions change, thus providing Bahá’í law with an essential element of flexibility, it cannot abrogate or change any of the laws which are explicitly laid down in the sacred Text.
The society for which certain of the laws of the Aqdas are designed will come only gradually into being,
.....................and Bahá’u’lláh has provided for the progressive application of Bahá’í law:

Some examples.............. Wordly control is shown by underlining:
TABLETS
............................whatever hath streamed from and is set down by the Pen of Glory is even as the sun for the whole world and that therein lie the welfare, security and true interests of all men; otherwise the earth will be tormented by a fresh calamity every day and unprecedented commotions will break out. God grant that the people of the world may be graciously aided to preserve the light of His loving counsels within the globe of wisdom. We cherish the hope that everyone may be adorned with the vesture of true wisdom, the basis of the government of the world.
TABLETS
Unto no one
is given the right to deviate from the laws and ordinances of God. Whoso deviateth therefrom is reckoned with the trespassers in the Book of God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne.
TABLETS
The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquility of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God.
TABLETS
Thus, now that this lucid commandment hath descended from the heaven of the Will of God, it is lawful and proper to charge interest on money, that the people of the world may, in a spirit of amity and fellowship and with joy and gladness, devotedly engage themselves in magnifying the Name of Him Who is the Well-Beloved of all mankind.
TABLETS
While in prison We have revealed a Book which We have entitled "The Most Holy Book." We have enacted laws therein and adorned it with the commandments of thy Lord, Who exerciseth authority over all that are in the heavens and on the earth. Say: Take hold of it, O people, and observe that which hath been sent down in it of the wondrous precepts of your Lord, the Forgiving, the Bountiful.
GLEANINGS
From the heaven of God’s Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race.
GLEANINGS
O people of Justice! Be as brilliant as the light, and as splendid as the fire that blazed in the Burning Bush. The brightness of the fire of your love will no doubt fuse and unify the contending peoples and kindreds of the earth, whilst the fierceness of the flame of enmity and hatred cannot but result in strife and ruin. We beseech God that He may shield His creatures from the evil designs of His enemies. He verily hath power over all things.
GLEANINGS
It behooveth, likewise, the loved ones of God to be forbearing towards their fellowmen, and to be so sanctified and detached from all things, and to evince such sincerity and fairness, that all the peoples of the earth may recognize them as the trustees of God amongst men. Consider to what lofty heights the injunctions of the Almighty have soared, and how abject is the habitation wherein these feeble souls are now abiding.
GLEANINGS
God hath committed into your hands the reins of the government of the people, that ye may rule with justice over them, safeguard the rights of the downtrodden, and punish the wrongdoers. If ye neglect the duty prescribed unto you by God in His Book, your names shall be numbered with those of the unjust in His sight.
GLEANINGS
The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential.
GLEANINGS
Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.
(Income) Tax: Should anyone acquire one hundred mithqáls of gold, nineteen mithqáls thereof are God’s and to be rendered unto Him........................This We have commanded you, ...........................
Crime and Punishment: The men of God’s House of Justice have been charged with the affairs of the people. ....................................
That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the House of Justice that the members thereof may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. ......................................
Matters of State: All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice............
Hunting: "If ye should hunt with beasts or birds of prey" and so forth. Other means, such as bows and arrows, guns, and similar equipment employed in hunting, are also included. If, however, traps or snares are used, and the game dieth before it can be reached, it is unlawful for consumption.
Treasure Trove: Should a treasure be found, one-third thereof is the right of the discoverer, and the other two-thirds should be expended by the men of the House of Justice for the welfare of all people. This shall be done after the establishment of the House of Justice......................

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes. Bahais do not believe in a 'Jesus Son of God' and so cannot believe in all of the bible, but still want to quote bits tghat they like.

And they move goal-posts in every direction....... although Bahauallah writes about a Bahai World with Bahai Laws and controls, Bahais insist that 'Bahai' doesn't get involved in that at all. Of course it doesn't just now, but would love to if it could recruit enough Bahais!

And you point about corruption in positions of power is true. Power corrupts.......

Thanks again for being so persistent. If the Baha'i Faith is the truth, it would be nice to know for sure. But, I see discrepancies everywhere. It's good to know it's not just me.

 

[arthra]

"Badger" When you mention above

"All matters of state should be referred to the House of Justice"... It means matters of state that affect Baha'is.


O people of God! That which traineth the world is
Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and
punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to
the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new
problem and for every problem an expedient solution,
such affairs should be referred to the House of Justice
that the members thereof may act according to the
needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the
sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients
of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is
incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All
matters of State should be referred to the House of
Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according
to that which God hath revealed in His Book.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 89)

It doesn't mean that the House of Justice will be dominating world affairs and dictating international affairs.

Baha'is accept Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God...His title "Son of God" refers to the spiritual relationship as close as a father is to a son and vice versa...

"It is true that Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God, but this, as explained by Bahá'u'lláh in the 'Íqán, does not indicate any Physical relationship whatever. Its meaning is entirely spiritual and points to the close relationship existing between Him and the Almighty God. Nor does it necessarily indicate any inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. As far as their spiritual nature is concerned all Prophets can be regarded as Sons of God, as they all reflect His light, though not in an equal measure, and this difference in reflection is due to the conditions and circumstances under which they appear."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 29, 1937)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

 

[psychoslice]

Like water spirit will find its own level, there is no need to want or force the faith onto others, it will by its own accord find its way into the heart of others, and this also goes for any faith that is not forced onto people, you cannot force love, you can only share it. .

 

[loverofhumanity]

But humanity was promised by Christ, the Kingdom of God on earth and what that means, try and think about it. It means as we understand it, that mankind will not be left without infallible guidance. The papacy was never guaranteed infallibility by Christ nor was a central infallible authority appointed by Muhammad so we have no one central authority to which Muslims can turn to. But Baha'u'llah left a System signed by His Pen and Seal which was endowed with infallibility - the Kingdom of God on earth.

The kingdom of God has been promised to all in the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. The Kingdom of God is not however, the Kingdom of man. It is not an earthly authority but a heavenly one, a spiritual one, a religious one not a worldly political authority.

Isaiah 2:3

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The above verse clearly speaks about a spiritual body not an earthly government or political entity. It clearly talks about a house on a mountain with many people flowing to it in Israel, Zion. And it even says that the law will be the Word of the Lord and shall go forth from the house on the mountain in Israel.

This is the house on the mountain that the laws of God goes forth from to all the world..... the laws of God not man.

http://www.bahai.org/the-universal-house-of-justice/seat-universal-house-justice

Isaiah 35:2

the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Mount Carmel has been given so much significance in the Bible it's abundantly clear that the laws of God are to flow from Mount Carmel.

Micah 7:14

Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel

Where does the Christian fold get fed from? Rome? England? And Muslims? Arabia? Iran?

Who gets fed the laws of God from the midst of Carmel? The Baha'is.

So. To recapitulate? The Kingdom of God is a spiritual, heavenly kingdom based on virtues and the laws of God not a political entity or world government which man may at some time form.

But we can go round and round in circles here because humanity, up till now, has never ever had the Kingdom of God on earth. This is the very first time in fulfilment of a prophecy of over 2,000 years prayed for everyday by Christians. And we have nothing with which to compare the Kingdom of God as it has never happened before now.

Christians still pray for the Kingdom of God to come despite the papacy, so even in Christian circles it's known that the Papacy is not the Kingdom. And other sects claiming they have the Kingdom do not have their laws coming to them from Israel.

Matthew 6:10

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

This is the 'new heaven and the new earth' promised in the Bible. A new religion from God with a new name and new teachings (a new song) and so on.

This is not about Baha'i but about the fulfilment of all the promises made by God to man. This is about a glorious future for humanity.

The current period of pain is similar to childbirth. The birth pangs of a new world being born.


New Name Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12

New Song Rev 5:9, Rev 14:3

New Jerusalem Rev 3:12, Rev 21:2

All things will be made new

Rev 21:5 New Heaven

Rev 21:1 New Earth

 

[oldbadger]

"Badger" When you mention above

"All matters of state should be referred to the House of Justice"... It means matters of state that affect Baha'is...........................

.................... at this time............ yes!

But this thread is all about what is hoped for, what would be if there was an overwhelming majority of Bahais in a country or the World.

You would need to answer the other paragraphs, a small selection at the bottom showing how secular matters would be handled, which are not at this time because Bahai has no large amount of authority or responsibility.

It's no good for Bahais to constantly repeat their situation now, such as 'We don't get involved in politics!'.... 'We don't support political parties!'..... 'Our laws are only for Bahais!' because this thread is not discussing any situation 'Now'.

imo.... It would actually be good for a Bahai to answer, arrow-straight, 'Yep, that would be a great World, where Bahai Houses of Justice could put things right, right across the whole of humanity.....' or whatever, because it would show that Bahai has a strong motive and Main Objective about the whole world. But all this, what I perceive as prevarication, dissembling, question-ducking just makes Bahai look to be hiding.....misleading. The way that Bahais present Bahai makes it look as if Bahai is just a nice religion promoting love which will never-ever get involved in any of the heavy-side of handling the really serious matters that effect all the people of the world. ....... You make Bahai look like 'Quite nice but not necessary'.

I guess that you do have a very difficult position when discussing your faith on the WorldWideNet. Not many Bahais 'Either have a dispensation to get involved in such communication, Or would dare to.'

Bahais who are perceived to communicate Bahai badly can get admonished or even disbarred, I expect, and so I guess that your position on this debate is fixed rock-solid, so this debate can only be of use to any interested outsiders who might wander into the thread.

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks again for being so persistent. If the Baha'i Faith is the truth, it would be nice to know for sure. But, I see discrepancies everywhere. It's good to know it's not just me.

It's not just Bahai, is it...? But corruption gives us the right to interrogate any body which might get big.... very closely.

Almost any group or body which gets really big seems to just crash into corruption, and the one thing in the world which has been really really good in this age is digital technology, or IT, a true God-send, because it has caught out so many!

IT has caught huge banks knowingly helping gangsters to launder their crime money, huge governments falsifying evidence so that they can invade countries, doctors murdering patients, sports association bosses taking huge backhanders, motor manufacturers faking dirt emissions...... anything big seems to get corrupt.

So when a religion keeps insisting that it doesn't actually want to govern the World, when its Prophet writes about its hoped-for destiny, that's a worry.

 

[oldbadger]

But humanity was promised by Christ, the Kingdom of God on earth and what that means, try and think about it. It means as we understand it, that mankind will not be left without infallible guidance. The papacy was never guaranteed infallibility by Christ nor was a central infallible authority appointed by Muhammad so we have no one central authority to which Muslims can turn to. But Baha'u'llah left a System signed by His Pen and Seal which was endowed with infallibility - the Kingdom of God on earth.

...... a theocracy, then!

The kingdom of God has been promised to all in the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. The Kingdom of God is not however, the Kingdom of man. It is not an earthly authority but a heavenly one, a spiritual one, a religious one not a worldly political authority.

.... so Bahauallah needn't have wated hios time writing down all those laws and systems of control, then!

Isaiah 2:3

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The above verse clearly speaks about a spiritual body not an earthly government or political entity. It clearly talks about a house on a mountain with many people flowing to it in Israel, Zion. And it even says that the law will be the Word of the Lord and shall go forth from the house on the mountain in Israel.

.... so the Jews could have repealed all those 613 laws, then!

This is the house on the mountain that the laws of God goes forth from to all the world..... the laws of God not man.

...Divine law..... = theocracy on Earth.

Mount Carmel has been given so much significance in the Bible it's abundantly clear that the laws of God are to flow from Mount Carmel.

.... if you believe in all this so closely, why don't you just stick to the laws layed down in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy? All of them!

..............................................

Rev 21:1 New Earth

Ah Ah Ah....! 'New Earth' is TANGIBLE! You would need to just stick to quotes about spiritual laws and the intangible if your claim was correct.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...... a theocracy, then!


.... so Bahauallah needn't have wated hios time writing down all those laws and systems of control, then!


.... so the Jews could have repealed all those 613 laws, then!


...Divine law..... = theocracy on Earth.


.... if you believe in all this so closely, why don't you just stick to the laws layed down in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy? All of them!

..............................................


Ah Ah Ah....! 'New Earth' is TANGIBLE! You would need to just stick to quotes about spiritual laws and the intangible if your claim was correct.

Dear old badger. I find myself impelled to give you another like just for your perseverance. [emoji106]

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's not just Bahai, is it...? But corruption gives us the right to interrogate any body which might get big.... very closely.

Almost any group or body which gets really big seems to just crash into corruption, and the one thing in the world which has been really really good in this age is digital technology, or IT, a true God-send, because it has caught out so many!

IT has caught huge banks knowingly helping gangsters to launder their crime money, huge governments falsifying evidence so that they can invade countries, doctors murdering patients, sports association bosses taking huge backhanders, motor manufacturers faking dirt emissions...... anything big seems to get corrupt.

So when a religion keeps insisting that it doesn't actually want to govern the World, when its Prophet writes about its hoped-for destiny, that's a worry.

"My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith. For instance [in the future] should a woman..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...

(Revelation of Baha'u'llah Volume 2)

"He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me." (Gleanings)