Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

[arthra]

Can you tell me, are Bahauallah's main (translated) writings all accessible on the internet, or only extracts of them?

On this forum you can access the Writings translated into English at

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahai-writings.177422/

 

[oldbadger]

I hope you won't be knocking on my door to tell me all about it.

Good morning! My name is Oldbadger, and I'm here on a mission from Big-G to save your miserable sinful soul because.... as you've guessed, you've lead a depraved and wicked life. Is the kettle on?

 

[psychoslice]

Good morning! My name is Oldbadger, and I'm here on a mission from Big-G to save your miserable sinful soul because.... as you've guessed, you've lead a depraved and wicked life. Is the kettle on?

Is there something wrong with you ?, the way I see it you are the one who needs saving from your miserable life.

 

[oldbadger]

The letter of Shoghi Effendi covers and describes two processes.

First is the Lesser Peace established by the nations of the earth not the Baha'is.......

Shoghi Effendi has given us this definition of the Lesser Peace: [This gradual process...] must, as Bahá'u'lláh has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will themselves establish"- (PDC p.128).

The Guardian further amplifies his own statement when he anticipates gradual steps in this process. These steps he identifies as: "The political unification of the Eastern and Western Hemispheres, the emergence of a world government and the establishment of the Lesser Peace as (anticipated)...by the prophet Isaiah"- (CF p.33). He further adds that this step involves "the reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness."- (PDC p.128)

Next is the Most Great Peace established by the Baha'is

Shoghi Effendi has given us the following definition: "The Most Great Peace... as conceived by Bahá'u'lláh—a peace that must inevitably follow as the practical consequence of the spiritualization of the world and the fusion of all its races, creeds, classes and nations—can rest on no other basis, and can be preserved through no other agency, except the divinely appointed ordinances that are implicit in the World Order that stands associated with His Holy Name"- (WOB pp.162-163).

Shoghi Effendi further considered the following words addressed to Queen Victoria by Bahá'u'lláh to refer to the Most Great Peace and not to the Lesser Peace: "That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal cause, one common faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error..."- (WOB pp.163). In another Tablet Bahá'u'lláh refers to the unity of all mankind. According to Shoghi Effendi Bahá'u'lláh had in mind the Most Great Peace: "It beseemeth all men in this Day to take firm hold on the Most Great Name, and to establish the unity of all mankind. There is no place to flee to, no refuge that any one can seek, except Him"- (WOB pp.163)

The first peace is just political unification. Later, likely much later comes the brotherhood of man where love and unity abound.

There they are...... the keys to it all, maybe?
1. In bold I have shown where your world, a Bahai world would move from secular to religious control. A Theocracy.
There it is................

2. In underlining I have shown how (in my perception) the foundation of the Bahai Faith has shifted from the writings of Bahauallah to the opinions of another person. This happened in Christianity when Paul and others became the focus of most Christian Churches.
Read any extreme Christian opinions and the quotes will mostly be from Paul's letters, nothing to do with the handworker Jesus..
Read any Bahai's opinions and Bahauallah may not be referred to at all!
The mistakes of history repeat themselves, again, and again and again.

I have read that there are naughty Bahais in America, and that they are more fundamentalist. That word, 'fundamentalist', and how it triggers negative feelings in many people's minds. But if 'fundamentalist' means that these Bahais always go to the roots of their religion, their prophet, the one who received the messages direct.... then maybe they are the true Bahais?

 

[oldbadger]

Is there something wrong with you ?, the way I see it you are the one who needs saving from your miserable life.

But yours was the first insulting and really nasty post sent on this thread. True?
There's lots wrong with me, but that post was sent to another, in humour.
God loves laughter.

 

[oldbadger]

On this forum you can access the Writings translated into English at

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahai-writings.177422/

Thankyou...............

But arthra....... why would I need to go to a thread on a privately owned forum to access the writings of Bahauallah?
Does this mean that the translated writings, the books, ofBahauallah, in total, all of them, are not easily accessible directly through www.bahai.org?

I will look to see what writings are held on rf's 'bahai-writings' but I'm amazed that you sent me to this forum to find them. Can you see that?

 

[psychoslice]

But yours was the first insulting and really nasty post sent on this thread. True?
There's lots wrong with me, but that post was sent to another, in humour.
God loves laughter.

I think it goes further than that matte.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thankyou...............

But arthra....... why would I need to go to a thread on a privately owned forum to access the writings of Bahauallah?
Does this mean that the translated writings, the books, ofBahauallah, in total, all of them, are not easily accessible directly through www.bahai.org?

I will look to see what writings are held on rf's 'bahai-writings' but I'm amazed that you sent me to this forum to find them. Can you see that?

All the available Baha'i literature that is available to Baha'is is also available to the public at the Baha'i Reference Library which is at the bottom of the page of the link you quoted. Scroll down to the bottom and you will see a photo of the Baha'i Reference Library. The website is to give basic information and the Reference Library is if you want to do further research.

http://www.bahai.org/?

 

[oldbadger]

All the available Baha'i literature that is available to Baha'is is also available to the public at the Baha'i Reference Library which is at the bottom of the page of the link you quoted. Scroll down to the bottom and you will see a photo of the Baha'i Reference Library. The website is to give basic information and the Reference Library is if you want to do further research.

http://www.bahai.org/?

Thankyou.
I downloaded the lot.

As a mystic, Bahauallah always excited what senses I possessed of the spiritual condition.
I often thought of his writings when things were going badly and was 'down'.
I often thought of his writings when things were going well and I was feeling strong.

I saw the 'seven Valleys' pdf...... faded memories. 'Oh brother, not every sea hath pearls, not every branch can flower. nor may the nightgale sing thereon. Then, ere the nightingale of the mystic paradise repair to the garden of God, and the rays of the heavenly morning return to the son of truth..... make thee an effort.........' or close to that.....

...and, 'when I made to describe this station, my pen it broke and the page was torn....'

I will read the lot.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thankyou.
I downloaded the lot.

As a mystic, Bahauallah always excited what senses I possessed of the spiritual condition.
I often thought of his writings when things were going badly and was 'down'.
I often thought of his writings when things were going well and I was feeling strong.

I saw the 'seven Valleys' pdf...... faded memories. 'Oh brother, not every sea hath pearls, not every branch can flower. nor may the nightgale sing thereon. Then, ere the nightingale of the mystic paradise repair to the garden of God, and the rays of the heavenly morning return to the son of truth..... make thee an effort.........' or close to that.....

...and, 'when I made to describe this station, my pen it broke and the page was torn....'

I will read the lot.

Glad to be of assistance to you.

 

[George-ananda]

2. In underlining I have shown how (in my perception) the foundation of the Bahai Faith has shifted from the writings of Bahauallah to the opinions of another person. This happened in Christianity when Paul and others became the focus of most Christian Churches.
Read any extreme Christian opinions and the quotes will mostly be from Paul's letters, nothing to do with the handworker Jesus..
Read any Bahai's opinions and Bahauallah may not be referred to at all!
The mistakes of history repeat themselves, again, and again and again.

I think this is not correct. Bahauallah was the founder of the Faith. He clearly appointed Abdul Baha as his successor. Abdul Baha officially made Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Faith which is an official authoritative position. There was to be a continuation of the Guardianship through the male offspring of the Guardian. Mysteriously Shoghi Effendi died childless and the entire institution of the guardianship came to a shocking and mysterious end. Now the only final authoritative word comes from the elected Universal House of Justice.

As Paul was not part of Jesus' direct train of official leadership your comparison between Paul and Shoghi Effendi is not really accurate. The writings of Shoghi Effendi are based on the writings of the founders of the faith.

 

[oldbadger]

I think this is not correct. Bahauallah was the founder of the Faith. He clearly appointed Abdul Baha as his successor. Abdul Baha officially made Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Faith which is an official authoritative position. There was to be a continuation of the Guardianship through the male offspring of the Guardian. Mysteriously Shoghi Effendi died childless and the entire institution of the guardianship came to a shocking and mysterious end. Now the only final authoritative word comes from the elected Universal House of Justice.

As Paul was not part of Jesus' direct train of official leadership your comparison between Paul and Shoghi Effendi is not really accurate. The writings of Shoghi Effendi are based on the writings of the founders of the faith.

I get your points.... But (Imo) Christians have elevated Paul, and (Imo) Abdul Baha does seem to have almost equal status, is quoted more than Bahauallah?

Question.... The way that you have mentioned Shogi Effendi's death... mysterious and shocking... that almost reads as if it could have been foul-play?

 

[George-ananda]

I get your points.... But (Imo) Christians have elevated Paul, and (Imo) Abdul Baha does seem to have almost equal status, is quoted more than Bahauallah?

Abdul Baha is considered inspired and authoritative per the directives of Bahauallah. You might hear more Abdul Baha quotes discussed as he addressed more everyday subjects. Bahauallah's language is very flowery and not as direct.

Question.... The way that you have mentioned Shogi Effendi's death... mysterious and shocking... that almost reads as if it could have been foul-play?

What is interesting is that not only was he to have male issue to continue the divine lineage of the Guardianship of the Faith (which was considered an essential institution in the continuing divine guidance of the Faith), Baha'is are commanded to have a Last Will and Testament and one was never found for Shoghi Effendi. He died of a coronary thrombosis at I believe the age of 57 without children.

Foul play you ask? I do not know.

 

[oldbadger]

Abdul Baha is considered inspired and authoritative per the directives of Bahauallah. You might hear more Abdul Baha quotes discussed as he addressed more everyday subjects. Bahauallah's language is very flowery and not as direct.

What is interesting is that not only was he to have male issue to continue the divine lineage of the Guardianship of the Faith (which was considered an essential institution in the continuing divine guidance of the Faith), Baha'is are commanded to have a Last Will and Testament and one was never found for Shoghi Effendi. He died of a coronary thrombosis at I believe the age of 57 without children.

Foul play you ask? I do not know.

Yes.... In his position he almost certainly would have left a will. But the two witnesses to it would still be alive to remember his signing it.

I would seek to discover the fates of those closest to him just before his untimely death.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes.... In his position he almost certainly would have left a will. But the two witnesses to it would still be alive to remember his signing it.

I would seek to discover the fates of those closest to him just before his untimely death.

I actually saw Shoghi Effendi's widow in person and heard her speak. She was fully supportive of the mainstream Baha'i Faith as we now know it.

 

[oldbadger]

I actually saw Shoghi Effendi's widow in person and heard her speak. She was fully supportive of the mainstream Baha'i Faith as we now know it.

There you go!
No problem then....

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Now how do you reconcile what you say above with these two passages from the very document you referenced?

By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation.

All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race and become a single people.

Sorry for the delay: earning a living intervened, as it does from time to time. Start with the "single nation." Shoghi Effendi is quoting Abdu'l-Baha here, so we go back to the source. It's Some Answered Questions, Chapter 12, a commentary on Revelation ch 11 vv 1 - 10, down to "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." Abdu'l-Baha shows that the animal imagery is metaphorical, interprets it as referring to harmony between different factions and nations, and says that this was not achieved in the Christian era, "... even to this day intense enmity, hatred and conflict prevail among the Christian peoples themselves." But in the Baha'i era that is just beginning, "Ultimately, war will be entirely
banned, and when the laws of the Most Holy Book are enacted, arguments and disputes will, with
perfect justice, be settled before a universal tribunal of governments and peoples." Note, not before the House of Justice. Then he says:
"The five continents of the world will become as one,"
"diverse nations will become one nation"
"the earth will become one homeland, and the human race will become one people"
"all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner"
" ...will become a single nation"
"All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith"
"will be blended into one race"
(Some Answered Questions, New Translation)

I did once encounter a Bahai online who thought that "one nation" meant that national governments and boundaries would be eliminated. But that was not the brightest Bahai in the chandelier (yet light is light, from whatever source). After all, we do not expect the continents to reform Pangaea, to we? Nor do we expect that when the earth becomes one homeland, people will cease to have affection for the nations of their birth, and make efforts to improve them. "all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner" -- but he has just said that when the Aqdas laws are enacted (I would translate that as "are followed", اجرا گردد ), that entails "a universal tribunal of governments and peoples." The word for "peoples" here is mellal / ملل , which refers to religious communites, in the plural. So "men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith" cannot mean everyone will be Bahai, any more than "The five continents of the world will become as one" means a new Pangaea. The continents will be continents, but the barriers between them will be eliminated so the people in them work together AS IF they were on one continent. Think "internet." The peoples/communities will still be communities, but the barriers between them (prejudice, exclusivism, competitiveness) will be eliminated so the people in them work together AS IF they were in one community. And so forth. This was also Shoghi Effendi's understanding, for he writes "The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baha'u'llah, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united..." (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 203)

I know for a fact we studied from only official Baha'i translations and the use of unauthorized or unapproved translations was covenant breaking. I also know the Kitab'i'Aqdas is the law book of the new era that in the course of time is to be fully implemented, [ /quote]

It seems you were among Bahais who were putting their own ideas into the mouths of Baha'u'llah and the other key figures. This is really extreme. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using unauthorized translations, and the Bahais all do it all the time. Browne's translation of A Traveller's Narrative is still in print and for sale in Bahai book shops. Marzieh Gail's The Secret of Divine Civilization. etc.

As for the implementation of the Aqdas, that was covered in the quote from SAQ above.

I think you are creating a Baha'i 2.0 (which will be more palatable to modern western people than the 1.0 version).

I am mainly excavating Bahai teachings, from some accretions on top of them, the "received understanding" that we all get via Bahai literature and summerschools and more recently the Ruhi classes. This is something that has to be done and redone every generation. To a lesser extent, I try to relate Bahai teachings to new issues and conditions.

I am curious, do you think your views would be fully endorsed by the UHJ?

God forbid, no! If the House of Justice started endorsing some Bahais' opinions and disapproving of others, we would be back in the dark ages of heresy trials and the use of power to enforce orthodoxy. Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi rather brilliantly abolished all that, by separating the role of doctrinal interpretation, embodied in Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardianship, from the role of "administrative matters," which falls under the House of Justice. Baha'u'llah adds "
but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book." By separating the administrative authority from litergical practices, he has removed the possibility of using power to enforce the right kind of worship. And that also means that differences in worship practices cannot lead to administrative separation, as happened so often in Christian history. We are free to cut our eggs at the small end or the big end, without separating into warring communities about it.

I've discussed this on my blog under "Defending Shoghi Effendi" : https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/defending-shoghi-effendi/

Exonerate Shoghi Effendi – and relieve yourselves of a burden. Reason tells us that theocracies never work, and a state in which people of only one faith are allowed to vote for a government organ whose decisions affect all, can never be equitable in principle, however kind one might hope it would be in practice. The World Order of Baha’u’llah cannot be based on a fundamental inequity.

And if we are clear that the separation of Church and State is a principle that is consistently taught by Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, and applies to the Bahai institutions as much as to non-Bahai ones, we will have much less difficulty in presenting the Bahai World Order model.

It has a basic two-part architecture, the religious and the political spheres, separate and cooperating. In the political sphere there are three arms: the judicial, executive, and legislative. They exist at local and national levels and according to the Guardian will eventually exist at a global level, as part of the commonwealth of nations. This is a civil government: in the Guardian’s descriptions of it there is no mention at all of the Houses of Justice or Assemblies. (see, for example, World Order of Baha’u’llah 203 )

We also have an Administrative Order, which is a government of the religious community, by the religious community, in religious and community matters. This does not separate the judicial, executive, and legislative; rather it separates the liturgical (House of Worship), the doctrinal (the Guardianship) and its extensions for propagation and protection, known collectively as the Learned of Baha, and the ‘legislative’ which is also the religious judiciary (the House of Justice both makes the laws and is the highest court of appeal for Bahais), known collectively as the Rulers of Baha.

All this is simple enough: The world order has two arms, each divided into three organs, giving six core institutions. The Bahai community also has the function of “Head of the Faith’ which was held first by Baha’u’llah, then Abdu’l-Baha, then the Guardian and now by the Universal House of Justice.

 

[George-ananda]

Sorry for the delay: earning a living intervened, as it does from time to time.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply but I have to disagree. I think you are trying to contort the writings into a more palatable form for modern consumption.

We can get at a war of quotations and interpretations forever but I think we understand each other and disagree. I have seen your interpretation of several quotes now and providing new quotes will result in the same. Who is the final arbiter. I believe it is the UHJ and as you say when asked about your opinions being endorsed by the UHJ, you replied: God forbid, no! If the House of Justice started endorsing some Bahais' opinions and disapproving of others, we would be back in the dark ages of heresy trials and the use of power to enforce orthodoxy. The Baha'i Faith does enforce orthodoxy and (bans Covenant Breakers) and one of its tenants is its administration that will avoid schisms in the Faith. That is a hallmark tenant.

Where can Baha'is go to settle a dispute but the UHJ?

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply but I have to disagree. I think you are trying to contort the writings into a more palatable form for modern consumption.

We can get at a war of quotations and interpretations forever but I think we understand each other and disagree. I have seen your interpretation of several quotes now and providing new quotes will result in the same. Who is the final arbiter. I believe it is the UHJ and as you say when asked about your opinions being endorsed by the UHJ, you replied: God forbid, no! If the House of Justice started endorsing some Bahais' opinions and disapproving of others, we would be back in the dark ages of heresy trials and the use of power to enforce orthodoxy. The Baha'i Faith does enforce orthodoxy and (bans Covenant Breakers) and one of its tenants is its administration that will avoid schisms in the Faith. That is a hallmark tenant.

Where can Baha'is go to settle a dispute but the UHJ?

I think that you have it........
But that sadly indicts main-stream bahai for (also) sweetening the true bahai world, once it might have develop to the extent of the 'most great peace'. Sen's picture is probably less discreet, but more 'open'. ???
I have little doubt that a Bahai World would be a theocracy, with bahai laws, taxation, policing and enforcement.
The 'kernel' of Bahai, as with the 'kernels' of many excellent societies, is great, but mankind can do the most dreadful things to a beautiful idea. Karl Marx's picture is another example, surely?

Sadly, power corrupts, and absolute power placed into the hands of a very few is almost bound to produce what it has produced before........

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think that you have it........
But that sadly indicts main-stream bahai for (also) sweetening the true bahai world, once it might have develop to the extent of the 'most great peace'. Sen's picture is probably less discreet, but more 'open'. ???
I have little doubt that a Bahai World would be a theocracy, with bahai laws, taxation, policing and enforcement.
The 'kernel' of Bahai, as with the 'kernels' of many excellent societies, is great, but mankind can do the most dreadful things to a beautiful idea. Karl Marx's picture is another example, surely?

Sadly, power corrupts, and absolute power placed into the hands of a very few is almost bound to produce what it has produced before........

The Baha'i Faith never claimed to be Utopia and it is not. It is and will be a big improvement and help advance the world over a period of time but there will be another Prophet to come after a 1,000 years and so we will have to step aside and make way for progress - interplanetary unity?

Baha'is are people like anyone and when the next Messenger comes we will likely oppose Him.

We will never be perfect so what you say is true but we may advance to higher levels as humans we hope and not have wars anymore. If the Baha'i Faith could help eliminate war forever it would have done a great service to humanity.