Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

[George-ananda]

@Sen McGlinn Why do you want to claim you are a member of the Baha'i Faith as opposed to saying that you disagree with many things of the orthodox Baha'i Faith but have great respect and reverence for the much of the writings and teachings of the founders. The Baha'i Faith requires orthodox positions among all its members on major positions. The orthodox Baha'i Faith for example foresees a divine melding of Church and State under the divine banner. This is something you and I can't foresee or agree with. I accepted that and left the orthodox Baha'i Faith.

 

[oldbadger]

The Baha'i Faith never claimed to be Utopia and it is not. It is and will be a big improvement and help advance the world over a period of time but there will be another Prophet to come after a 1,000 years and so we will have to step aside and make way for progress - interplanetary unity?

Baha'is are people like anyone and when the next Messenger comes we will likely oppose Him.

We will never be perfect so what you say is true but we may advance to higher levels as humans we hope and not have wars anymore. If the Baha'i Faith could help eliminate war forever it would have done a great service to humanity.

Elimination of war..........
How big does a conflict have to be for it to be classed as a war?
I look upon any conflict as war. From a shoplifter stabbing a security officer to a regiment invading a large area, and more, I see human conflict as just.... human conflict. And so a World Power operating an international police force would be involved in human conflict 'day by day'.
The most peaceful people that I know personally are the JWs, and if they succeeded to a JW World before Bahai then they would have the same problems with policing the world, and they have proved again and again that they would die before being violent. Their reputation for outstanding faith in the death camps is just awesome.

 

[oldbadger]

@Sen McGlinn Why do you want to claim you are a member of the Baha'i Faith as opposed to saying that you disagree with many things of the orthodox Baha'i Faith but have great respect and reverence for the much of the writings and teachings of the founders. The Baha'i Faith requires orthodox positions among all its members on major positions. The orthodox Baha'i Faith for example foresees a divine melding of Church and State under the divine banner. This is something you and I can't foresee or agree with. I accepted that and left the orthodox Baha'i Faith.

Most interesting explanation....... thankyou.
I was married to a Bahai and thought that i was one (before enrolment started) but veered off into 'God is all' Deism. There were many folks back then who thought they were Bahais but who might have been more suited to Universalist groups.

But where a considerable group find themselves outside of a faith, all together, I can see how they might 'cling' and wish to carry on. The many Christian denominations show this as well, as do the Islamic factions?

 

[George-ananda]

Most interesting explanation....... thankyou.
I was married to a Bahai and thought that i was one (before enrolment started) but veered off into 'God is all' Deism. There were many folks back then who thought they were Bahais but who might have been more suited to Universalist groups.

But where a considerable group find themselves outside of a faith, all together, I can see how they might 'cling' and wish to carry on. The many Christian denominations show this as well, as do the Islamic factions?

I'm curious as to what happened with your wife's religious future. And was she clear on the Faith's future visions?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Elimination of war..........
How big does a conflict have to be for it to be classed as a war?
I look upon any conflict as war. From a shoplifter stabbing a security officer to a regiment invading a large area, and more, I see human conflict as just.... human conflict. And so a World Power operating an international police force would be involved in human conflict 'day by day'.
The most peaceful people that I know personally are the JWs, and if they succeeded to a JW World before Bahai then they would have the same problems with policing the world, and they have proved again and again that they would die before being violent. Their reputation for outstanding faith in the death camps is just awesome.

I'm mainly referring to conflicts like in Syria. We will always need a police force for individual violence.

But wars ceasing means a lot more than just cessation of hostilities. It means the $trillions invested in destruction can be invested instead in life. Universal education, universal Health Care, world employment and less taxes. Eliminating war will allow us to address things like world poverty and the environment because of all the funds and resources that will be freed up.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm curious as to what happened with your wife's religious future. And was she clear on the Faith's future visions?

She sat upon a LSA (there were 9 Bahais in the locality) and she understood (believed) that one day there would be a Bahai World, a 'most great peace'.
She died in 1991.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm mainly referring to conflicts like in Syria. We will always need a police force for individual violence.

But wars ceasing means a lot more than just cessation of hostilities. It means the $trillions invested in destruction can be invested instead in life. Universal education, universal Health Care, world employment and less taxes. Eliminating war will allow us to address things like world poverty and the environment because of all the funds and resources that will be freed up.

Look carefully at what you wrote.
Did you see all that happening in a Bahai World, or a secular world?
You see?......... without realising it you may well be dreaming of, praying for, a Bahai Theocracy.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Look carefully at what you wrote.
Did you see all that happening in a Bahai World, or a secular world?
You see?......... without realising it you may well be dreaming of, praying for, a Bahai Theocracy.

That's my vision of a secular world. Simply because of the monies freed from military expenses. Nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith. Even it is written by Baha'u'llah that the Lesser Peace is to make life more bearable.

"Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.”

When you free $trillions you're talking about immense possibilities of having things like free world education, free world universal health care etc. Again nothing to do with Bahá'í. Even in some countries you can get free health care despite military budgets and these things will only be more readily available to the people when war is gone.

 

[arthra]

The most peaceful people that I know personally are the JWs, and if they succeeded to a JW World before Bahai then they would have the same problems with policing the world, and they have proved again and again that they would die before being violent. Their reputation for outstanding faith in the death camps is just awesome.

Baha'is also are encouraged to serve in non-combatant roles if they are drafted under Selective Service... In the event of war they remain obedient to the government:

"The Bahá'í Teachings, indeed, condemn, emphatically and unequivocally, any form of physical violence, and warfare in the battlefield is obviously a form, and perhaps the worst form which such violence can assume.
"There are many other avenues through which the believers can assist in times of war by enlisting in services of a non-combatant nature -- services that do not involve the direct shedding of blood -- such as ambulance work, anti-air raid precaution service, office and administrative works, and it is for such types of national service that they should volunteer.
"It is immaterial whether such activities would still expose them to dangers, either at home or in the front, since their desire is not to protect their lives, but to desist from any acts of willful murder.
"The friends should it their conscientious duty, as loyal members of the Faith, to apply for such exemption, even though there may be slight prospect of their obtaining the consent and approval of the authorities to their petition. It 407 is most essential that in times of such national excitement and emergency as those through which so many countries in the world are now passing that the believers should not allow themselves to be carried away by the passions agitating the masses, and act in a manner that would make them deviate from the path of wisdom and moderation, and lead them to violate, however reluctantly and indirectly, the spirit as well as the letter of the Teachings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British Isles, June 4, 1939)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 406)

It's important to understand that currently as we Baha'is see it the world powers need to work for peace through such a body as the United Nations.... eventually hoping for a representative world parliament... this would be a political secular entity. Each country should have a modicum of resources for a Police to ensure security within it's borders.

O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 93)

We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment.... Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the 'Most Great Peace' shall come.... Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind.... These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family.... Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind.... ix

(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah)

 

[oldbadger]

That's my vision of a secular world. Simply because of the monies freed from military expenses. Nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith. Even it is written by Baha'u'llah that the Lesser Peace is to make life more bearable.

"Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.”

When you free $trillions you're talking about immense possibilities of having things like free world education, free world universal health care etc. Again nothing to do with Bahá'í. Even in some countries you can get free health care despite military budgets and these things will only be more readily available to the people when war is gone.

Let's turn all of this right round.
In your idea of a 'near-perfect' 'lesser peace' world, when armies are disbanded, World education is consistent, schools are teaching a common language, laws will be legislated for world-wide justice, there will be universal taxation wealth will be more evenly distributed throughout. And none of it will be because of the Bahai Faith..... all that came about because secular humanity figured it out. Bahai will just be a religion and nothing to do with World government.
If you could just confirm all the above then this thread has arrived at a conclusion.
Confirm it with a 'yes', or deny it with a 'no'.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'is also are encouraged to serve in non-combatant roles if they are drafted under Selective Service... In the event of war they remain obedient to the government:


It's important to understand that currently as we Baha'is see it the world powers need to work for peace through such a body as the United Nations.... eventually hoping for a representative world parliament... this would be a political secular entity. Each country should have a modicum of resources for a Police to ensure security within it's borders.

You're still talking about this present age....!
Turn it round, then.......... the hoped for world parliament...... when that comes it will be run by atheists and Left-hand pathers, Druids and Zooastrians etc..... nothing to don with the Bahai uhj..... we will have arrived at that state by secular means. The Bahai faith will just be a big religion.
OK........ got it.
But you just need to confirm that the Bahai UHJ will have no involvement with all this World Government.
Yes/No

 

[Sen McGlinn]

The orthodox Baha'i Faith for example foresees a divine melding of Church and State

I think your are referring to a text that was not authenticated in the first place, and was then corrupted. It appears
in the old compilation Bahai World Faith:

“He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. This institution is under the protecting power of Baha’u’llah Himself.”
(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, 247)​

The source of this is a “pilgrim’s note” – that is, a report of what was said by Abdu’l-Baha, not a text he wrote. As regards such reports of talks, the Guardian’s secretary wrote in 1947 that:

Nothing can be considered scripture for which we do not have an original text. A verbatim record in Persian of His talks would of course be more reliable than one in English because He was not always accurately interpreted . . .
(Unfolding Destiny, 208)

In addition, the original report has been altered, and ideas are put in Abdu’l-Baha’s mouth with which he would certainly not agree. The version of his words in Bahai World Faith comes from The Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 455, which is based on notes of the talk first published in Star of the West, Vol. 4, No. 15 (December 12, 1913). The original reads:

The eleventh teaching is the organization called, The House of Justice, which is endowed with a political as well as a religious aspect. It embodies both aspects, and it is protected by the Preserving Power of Baha’o’llah Himself.​

In 1925 the editor of The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Howard MacNutt, revised this to read:

He has ordained and established the House of Justice, which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. This institution is under the protecting power of Baha’u’llah Himself.
​

The corruption of the text by MacNutt continues -- see "a consummate union" on my blog : https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/consummate-union/

I am not in any way opposed to Bahai teachings: I call myself a Bahai because I support and apply the Bahai teachings. I am simply a well-educated Bahai, using the techniques of textual analysis that I learned at university to understand the Bahai teaching, and to clear off some accumulated dross that has no roots in the authentic scriptures and does a disservice to the memories of its founding figures -- who were not lunatics. There's not a great deal of this dross: it's limited to a few topics and a few texts and translations. The Bahai writings and Bahai teachings have been transmitted with great faithfulness, but in a contingent world with humans stirring the pot, you always have to interrogate the text.

The House of Justice is reported to discourage Bahais from using academic methods in the study of the Bahai Faith (see https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/do...the-yerrinbool-bahai-centre-of-learning-2009/ ) but it has in the past encouraged such studies, and I have no doubt that the pendulum will swing back. In the meantime, I am what I am: a Bahai, and an educated thinking person. I cannot separate myself from either.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

t with a 'yes', or deny it with a 'no'.

Yes, that is the Bahai position. It is something like the European Union on a global scale. Abdu'l-Baha writes :

True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns ... shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise ... to establish the Cause of Universal Peace. They must make the Cause of Peace the object of general consultation, and seek by every means in their power to establish a Union of the nations of the world. They must conclude a binding treaty and establish a covenant, the provisions of which shall be sound, inviolable and definite. They must proclaim it to all the world and obtain for it the sanction of all the human race. This supreme and noble undertaking -- the real source of the peace and well-being of all the world -- should be regarded as sacred by all that dwell on earth. All the forces of humanity must be mobilized to ensure the stability and permanence of this Most Great Covenant. In this all-embracing Pact the limits and frontiers of each and every nation should be clearly fixed, the principles underlying the relations of governments towards one another definitely laid down, and all international agreements and obligations ascertained. In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 64)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let's turn all of this right round.
In your idea of a 'near-perfect' 'lesser peace' world, when armies are disbanded, World education is consistent, schools are teaching a common language, laws will be legislated for world-wide justice, there will be universal taxation wealth will be more evenly distributed throughout. And none of it will be because of the Bahai Faith..... all that came about because secular humanity figured it out. Bahai will just be a religion and nothing to do with World government.
If you could just confirm all the above then this thread has arrived at a conclusion.
Confirm it with a 'yes', or deny it with a 'no'.

Yes. Humanity will have bettered its condition as Baha'u'llah had said.

The Lesser Peace would in stages bring about a much better humanity.

But that would not mean the spiritualisation of man or the brotherhood of man except in a very basic form. It would be a body without a spirit so to speak as it would be world order but not based upon love, so many problems would still not be solved like religious and racial hatred, moral degradation and things like drug addiction which would need a spiritual solution to solve not just a political one.

 

[arthra]

But you just need to confirm that the Bahai UHJ will have no involvement with all this World Government.
Yes/No

Thanks for your comment Badger... The present agency of the Universal House of Justice dealing with the United Nations is the International Baha'i
Community and it's an NGO (Non Governmental Organization) that advises the United Nations... and personally that's what I see for the future as well...

"Active in various global forums, the Baha’i International Community maintains United Nations offices in New York and Geneva, as well as regional offices in Addis Ababa, Brussels, and Jakarta. The Baha’i International Community registered with the UN as an NGO in 1948 and currently has consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social council (ECOSOC) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), as well as accreditation with the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) and the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI). The Baha’i International Community collaborates with the UN and its specialized agencies, as well as member states, inter- and non-governmental organizations, academia, and practitioners."

Read more at https://www.bic.org/about/about-us#JLb9YOzx3cjwciqK.99

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, that is the Bahai position. It is something like the European Union on a global scale. Abdu'l-Baha writes :

Thankyou.
So Bahai will never run the world. That will be undertaken in a secular way, and it will be brought about by atheists, the odd Druid, some Lefty-hand pathers, Christians, the odd Bahai etc?

Sen, the 'bottom line' on this subject (for you) was Abdul Baha's word? So there was nothing that Bahauallah wrote that was more intimately acquainted with this subject matter? That's one 'thing' that this thread has shown to me: if Bahauallah didn't write it, then it's probably not at the hearet of His Faith. I know he appointed Abdul Baha, but then, Jesus appointed Cephas and others, and although Christianity revolved upon the visions of such as Paul and Cephas, to me none of these persons were prophets.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes. Humanity will have bettered its condition as Baha'u'llah had said.

The Lesser Peace would in stages bring about a much better humanity.

But that would not mean the spiritualisation of man or the brotherhood of man except in a very basic form. It would be a body without a spirit so to speak as it would be world order but not based upon love, so many problems would still not be solved like religious and racial hatred, moral degradation and things like drug addiction which would need a spiritual solution to solve not just a political one.

........ but Bahai won't be any kind of a driving force in the world...?
It may be that only a very few people will enrole then; they might just attend firesides and the more social aspect of Bahai, call themselves Bahai just as many folks are 'small-c Christians' now?
Bahai might be influential 'on the side' but make no decisions at all about the Governing or Order of the World.
It seems as if Bahauallah's book of Laws may get cherry picked, but never be the legal 'bible' for the world.

Our Queen is not allowed to get involved in politics, nor even comment upon situations openly. That might be the rule for Bahai. Folks might say, 'Bahai is a spiritual thing, but Bahai's are banned from getting inviolved in World Government decisions or even commenting upon them'. ?????

Well........ what was the point...?

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks for your comment Badger... The present agency of the Universal House of Justice dealing with the United Nations is the International Baha'i
Community and it's an NGO (Non Governmental Organization) that advises the United Nations... and personally that's what I see for the future as well...

Arthra, you don't 'deal' with the UN. Bahai is an OBSERVER in a specidic area of consideration.
But if, in a World of Peace and Harmony, that's all that Christians, Druids, Bahais, Hindus and Quakers do..... observe proceedings, then fine...... Bahai will never control the World, no matter how big it's majority, and it won't be able to withold positions or votes from any humans anywhere in importance World Order decisions.
No teeth and No claws is the easiest description, but if I went to any other forum and described that condition for Bahai in a Bahai Majority World I think that I might get differing replies to those on this thread.

"Active in various global forums, the Baha’i International Community maintains United Nations offices in New York and Geneva, as well as regional offices in Addis Ababa, Brussels, and Jakarta. The Baha’i International Community registered with the UN as an NGO in 1948 and currently has consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social council (ECOSOC) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), as well as accreditation with the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) and the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI). The Baha’i International Community collaborates with the UN and its specialized agencies, as well as member states, inter- and non-governmental organizations, academia, and practitioners."

Read more at https://www.bic.org/about/about-us#JLb9YOzx3cjwciqK.99

That's a Bahai website.

Now:-
Arthra, you have repeated several times that the Bahais are an advisory body to the United Nations, and that kind of 'format' is what might be followed even when Bahai covers the globe in a majority of people.
At this time that might not be a wise claim. There are many areas of importance that the UN addresses, and hundreds of organisations are NGO 'observers' to the UN with specific briefs. Almost all the areas of World importance that you have mentioned you do not have a brief to observe upon, yet your specific brief in an observation capacity is HUMAN RIGHTS through your Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) accreditation to participate in the Human Rights Council's sessions as Observers (only)!
How do you think the many sexual minorities would react to such news? And women's emancipation groups?
Out of the 23 key areas you could have gained a brief in, say, :
Conflict Resolution,
Disarmament,
Drug Abuse,
Education,
Environment,
Ethics & Values,
Human Resources,
Law,
Natural Resources & Energy,
Peace & Security,
Sustainable Development,
................... or like the Quakers, be in a direct observer capacity over most, you somehow have gotten involved in a key area which you could be criticised within?
What is happening on this thread? ...................... ?

 

[loverofhumanity]

........ but Bahai won't be any kind of a driving force in the world...?
It may be that only a very few people will enrole then; they might just attend firesides and the more social aspect of Bahai, call themselves Bahai just as many folks are 'small-c Christians' now?
Bahai might be influential 'on the side' but make no decisions at all about the Governing or Order of the World.
It seems as if Bahauallah's book of Laws may get cherry picked, but never be the legal 'bible' for the world.

Our Queen is not allowed to get involved in politics, nor even comment upon situations openly. That might be the rule for Bahai. Folks might say, 'Bahai is a spiritual thing, but Bahai's are banned from getting inviolved in World Government decisions or even commenting upon them'. ?????

Well........ what was the point...?

The Baha'i system is for Baha'is only. But this does not mean that when there are a majority of Baha'is a Baha'i State will not be formed.

By going to this link and typing in the top right corner 'theocracy' you can get all the answers to every question from an authoritative Source namely, the Universal House of Justice who are the infallible Bahá'í Institution on matters concerning the Baha'i Faith.

http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/search#q=Theocracy
This particular letter goes into much depth ...

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...se-of-justice/messages/#d=19950427_001&f=f1-6

There is no 'hidden agenda' this is all in the public domain for those who wish to question and want to know what are our intentions.

From a letter of the Guardian dated 8 Feb 1934

"The Bahá’í Commonwealth of the future, of which this vast Administrative Order is the sole framework, is, both in theory and practice, not only unique in the entire history of political institutions, but can find no parallel in the annals of any of the world’s recognized religious systems. No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam—none of these can be identified or be said to conform with the Administrative Order which the master-hand of its perfect Architect has fashioned"


From the House of Justice. 27 April 1995

As already mentioned, no one in this Dispensation is compelled to be a Bahá’í, and the division of humankind into the “clean” and the “unclean,” the “faithful” and the “infidels,” is abolished.

On Minorities

In answer to those who raise objections to this vision of a worldwide commonwealth inspired by a Divine Revelation, fearing for the freedom of minority groups or of the individual under such a system, we can explain the Bahá’í principle of upholding the rights of minorities and fostering their interests. We can also point to the fact that no person is ever compelled to accept the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh and moreover, unlike the situation in certain other religions, each person has complete freedom to withdraw from the Faith if he decides that he no longer believes in its Founder or accepts His Teachings. In light of these facts alone it is evident that the growth of the Bahá’í communities to the size where a non-Bahá’í state would adopt the Faith as the State Religion, let alone to the point at which the State would accept the Law of God as its own law and the National House of Justice as its legislature, must be a supremely voluntary and democratic process.

Any such formation of a Baha'i State must be voluntary.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm realising here that some confusion has arisen because the elucidations of the Universal House of Justice have been absent. The House of Justice have been asked many of these questions where people have worried about us being a theocracy or what may happen to minorities or are we political or what does it mean to abstain from politics and their explanations are truly enlightening and for us Baha'is - infallible.

I wasn't aware of these letters until I decided to look up 'theocracy on their library website. There are a few letters answering in detail people's concerns.

Here is one about the Kingdom of God being 'political' and we are establishing the Kimgdom of God. But they define it not just leave us to guess. From a letter April 1995 which is available to the public in the Baha'i Reference Library.

"Clearly the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth is a “political” enterprise, and the Teachings of the Faith are filled with “political” principles—using the word in the sense of the science of government and of the organization of human society. At the same time the Bahá’í world community repeatedly and emphatically denies being a “political” organization, and Bahá’ís are required, on pain of deprivation of their administrative rights, to refrain from becoming involved in “political” matters and from taking sides in “political” disputes. In other words, the Bahá’ís are following a completely different path from that usually followed by those who wish to reform society. They eschew political methods towards the achievement of their aims, and concentrate on revitalizing the hearts, minds and behavior of people and on presenting a working model as evidence of the reality and practicality of the way of life they propound.