Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Dawnofhope]

So that means that from 661AD Islam has been a "lifeless body without spirit"? But hold on, the Umayyads "killed" the two witnesses in 661AD... and how long were the two witnesses dead on the street? Three and a half days, right? But that doesn't add up to nothing significant, so let's make the days into years then back into days then back into years and we get 1260 years. Perfect, that's a number we can use. But not if we count it from when the bodies were "killed", but if we go back to before Islam was spiritually killed, back to 621AD. Now we can add the 1260 years and get what we want, 1844.

But wait, what's this in verse 8 of chapter 11? The bodies lie in the street of the great city? Which great city? It says it is mystically called Sodom and Egypt? Where's that? Oh, but it also says where their Lord was crucified. So who was the "Lord" of the two witnesses and where was this Lord of theirs crucified? I know it sounds like this should be Jesus, but why would Jesus be the Lord of Muhammad and Ali?

There appears to several parts of this interpretation that appear confusing for you;

1/ The Islamic Dispensation from the Hegira (622 CE) to 1260 AH (1844 CE)

The first day of the first month of the Islamic calendar (1 Muharram 1 AH) was set to the first new moon after the day the Prophet moved from Quba' to Medina (originally 26 Rabi' I on the pre-Islamic calendar) i.e., Friday, 16 July 622 AD/CE, the equivalent civil tabular date (same daylight period) in the Julian calendar. The Islamic day began at the preceding sunset on the evening of 15 July.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia

2/ The conversion of days to years in biblical prophecy

3/ The reference to 666 in reference to an empire that began in 661 CE

4/ The actual birth date of Christ was 4 - 6 BC rather than at the beginning of the Gregorian calendar.

5/ The use of the actual birth of Christ than the start of the Gregorian calendar to determine a 666 year interval. ie from the birth of Christ to the start of the Umayyad Dynasty is 666 years.

6/ The Umayyad Dynasty lasted only 749/750 CE and not for the entire Islamic dispensation.

7/ The use of cryptic symbolic language through out Revelation.

So the Umayyad Dynasty killed the spirit of the Islamic Dispensation as well as murdered Ali and other Imams who were the rightful leaders of Islam. So they killed Muhammad's Teachings figuratively and Ali/Imams literally and figuratively.

The 3 1/2 days is a Messianic reference liking Muhammad's revelation to that of Christ. It's use is very clever because it also represents 3 1/2 years so 42 months/1260 days. So The sacrifice of Christ is linked to the Divine nature of Muhammad's Revelation and the sacrifice of the Imams.

Remember the Hegira was to flee from the Quraysh and the Islamic dispensation is characterised by corruption as symbolised by the beast.

Sodom and Egypt are also Messianic references, so once again linking the Revelations of Christ and Islam, the martyrdom of Christ and the spiritual death of Islam.

Abdu'l-Baha explains;

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where 11 “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is taking the verses out of Revelation in order and describing some basic things about the different beasts and dragons. It's not complicated for me. I can see how it is for you, 'cause you've got to get this all to make some kind of sense that makes Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah all in there in the Revelation prophecies. But, it seems like you're doing alright.

I've read up to post 320. I'm going to read on. I can't wait to hear how you explain the wounded beast giving power to that last beast that has the number. And then, how you kick that number all the way back to the first beast that started in 661AD. Now, to me, that's complicated... or convoluted, but, even though I question it, it's better than most explanations I've heard.

Its both simple and complicated. Simple if you get a broad outline. Complicated if you get caught in the details.

Having an understanding of the book of Daniel will help you it related to many events that have happened. You also get a sense for how the Christians and the Jews interpret their prophetic books. Further the text itself gives you some answers.

In Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 you have references to four empires, the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and another empire that is unnamed and very different from the previous three. Naturally one would suspect the fourth empire to the Romans and that is a plausible explanation considered by the preterists.

Preterism - Wikipedia

However the beast in Daniel 7:19-21 is clearly the same beast in Revelation 12:3-4. If the book Revelation was written about 100 CE by St John and its prophetic why would it be the Roman Empire? If it is the Roman Empire then everything has come to pass which it clearly hasn't. Where is a compelling narrative linking the key verses?

So another explanation is the third beast is the Greco-Roman empire so the fourth beast can only be Islam. Alternatively the fourth beast represents both the Roman Empire which prefigures Islam. The first beast could be the Roman Empire and the second Islam.

Its important to remember that the prophecy is in regards to land known as Israel, the Jewish people and their exiles and captivity, and of course the Christian church.

Its useful to consider the time of the gentiles as mentioned in Luke 21:24 and how this ended with the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 after WWII. An important landmark was the signing of the Edict of toleration in 1844.

What are the times of the Gentiles?

Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

So this return of the Jewish people to their homeland is linked to the return of Christ during 1844.

So the period of exile for the Jews extended from 70 AD until 1844 when they were allowed to return to their homeland. Islamic occupation of Israel started in the 7th century and ended after WWII with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire between 1908 and 1922.

Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

The majority of that time of exile witnessed the Muslims occupying the holy land, followed by the Romans and a relative short period with the Christian crusades.

 

[Tumah]

Because Baha'is say that God brings new "social" laws along with His changeless "eternal" laws with each new messenger, I argue with them that if God had a temporary law that said that people breaking certain laws should be stoned to death, then I'd hate to have been that last person to get stoned for a law that God intended to change at some point.

But, for Jews, I don't suppose that anybody has gotten stoned to death for a long, long time, so hasn't the exact or literal requirements in the Law been changed and made more liberal?

It's not that it's been made more liberal, it's that these are situational laws and the conditions for fulfilling them, do not exist today. In order for a capital punishment case to go to trial, the most important condition is that there be Sanhedrin (it's sort of like the Jewish Supreme Court) sitting on the Temple Mount. This obviously is not the case today. In fact, during the years before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Rabbis understood the capital punishment Laws to be more of a preventative pressure rather than punitive. This was to the extent that when the Sicarii were running around and people were being killed in broad daylight, they understood that these punishments no longer had that ability to prevent murder, so they actually moved the Sanhedrin off the Temple Mount so as not to be capable of trying these cases. Eventually the Sanhedrin was disbanded, and we lost an important element required for a Rabbi to sit on one, so we've never recovered our ability to try these cases.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Whether a person pronounce the name
( Emmanuel) or ( Immanuel) the meaning is still the same, (God with us.)

God is Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus is God.
Either way is still the same, Christ Jesus is God the Father.

I believe you are being influenced by the Trinitarians. Do you know any Greek to read the original New Testament? Or are you basing your claims on what the translations and the majority say?

I do not believe that Jesus the son of God, the Christ, is God the Father. Those are trinitarian translations that teach that doctrine of the anti-Christ.

I can see how the trinitarian translations are injecting the trinity in their translations. But in the original Greek there is not such a thing.

 

[PruePhillip]

Its both simple and complicated.
What are the times of the Gentiles?.

Not so. The times of the Gentiles Jesus referred to was the Christian
era of the Gentiles. The Gospel would go out to the non-Jews but at
some point these Gentiles would treat it like the Jews did.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Prophets of God, only spoke one clear word. Not two, only one clear word.

All agree that in the holy books, prophets spoke figuratively as well. Not everything is literal words.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not so. The times of the Gentiles Jesus referred to was the Christian
era of the Gentiles. The Gospel would go out to the non-Jews but at
some point these Gentiles would treat it like the Jews did.

That could be a preterist view but not the conservative evangelical Christian perspective that was outlined in the link.

What are the times of the Gentiles?

One of the enormous achievements of Christianity was Jesus took Judaism and the Divine Teachings of the Tanakh beyond the confines of Judaism when He commanded His disciples to preach the gospel to all nations. However the sermon about the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled is about end times.

We need to consider the context of Luke 21 as a whole where Jesus is talking about His Return. He says;

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 21:24

So He is talking about the plight of the Jewish peoples and Jerusalem. So the captivity and exile of the Jewish people is linked to the time of the Gentiles. So its partly about preaching of the Gospels. An important aspect is the end of the Jewish exile and their return to Jerusalem. The significant advance in the process of the Jewish peoples being enabled to return to their homeland was the signing of the Edict of toleration in 1844. This coincided with the missionary work that brought the Gospel to the last of the nations by the mid 19th century.

 

[leibowde84]

Stands to logical reason that they would be mentioned. I see personally see that they are mentioned.

Regards Tony

Muhammad wasn't even born when the Bible was written. Thus, Islam didn't exist when it was written. So, how could it be mentioned?

 

[Dawnofhope]

At the time Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was physically of flesh and blood.

Now Jesus in heaven, now Jesus is Spirit.

John 14:26--"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

The Comforter is the Spirit of Jesus. Not Muhammad.
Muhammad say follow the gospels, but Muhammad not follow gospel himself.

Qu'ran 5:47---"Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

So that makes Muhammad a sinner, not follow gospels himself.

Gospels, say Jesus is God, Jesus is Son of God, Jesus is the Christ of God.
Muhammad not follow gospels himself, makes Muhammad a sinner.

It makes more sense for the comforter Whom Jesus spoke to be a man.

Jesus was a Comforter because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit. Muhammad was another Comforter and He was also the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It makes no sense that the Comforter is a disembodied Holy Spirit because a disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do the things mentioned in the following verses.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Muhammad did all these things as Jesus promised He would. We taught that it is not enough to follow Him but all the prophets who have gone before Him.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
Quran 3:84

The argument about Jesus being a sinner is the same argument the Jews used about Christ breaking the Sabbath. However both Muhammad and Jesus had the authority from God to bring new laws, reinterpret the existing ones and dispense with those that were no longer relevant.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muhammad wasn't even born when the Bible was written. Thus, Islam didn't exist when it was written. So, how could it be mentioned?

The Bible is a book of guidance of how to know and Love God and of Prophecy that tells of a day when that knowledge will be desired by all people.

As such it tells of how the future will unfold in veiled metephor. This is done so those that do want to know and love God can do so with genuine effort. The search has to be genuine and not in any way be motivated by self interest.

Thus from a Baha'i perspective the Bible tells us of the Revelation of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and of events in History that can show us we are still seeing the Christ Spirit in those Messages.

To me, this has become a great proof that the Bible is indeed great and divine guidance.

Regards Tony

 

[leibowde84]

The Bible is a book of guidance of how to know and Love God and of Prophecy that tells of a day when that knowledge will be desired by all people.

As such it tells of how the future will unfold in veiled metephor. This is done so those that do want to know and love God can do so with genuine effort. The search has to be genuine and not in any way be motivated by self interest.

Thus from a Baha'i perspective the Bible tells us of the Revelation of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and of events in History that can show us we are still seeing the Christ Spirit in those Messages.

To me, this has become a great proof that the Bible is indeed great and divine guidance.

Regards Tony

Can you provide the quote where Islam is discussed?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you provide the quote where Islam is discussed?

This has been discussed back in this thread. The books of Daniel and Revelation are the keys to this understanding. Rather than post a lengthy reply, here are links to the explanations.

These full explanations show the Revelations Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It's not that it's been made more liberal, it's that these are situational laws and the conditions for fulfilling them, do not exist today. In order for a capital punishment case to go to trial, the most important condition is that there be Sanhedrin (it's sort of like the Jewish Supreme Court) sitting on the Temple Mount. This obviously is not the case today. In fact, during the years before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Rabbis understood the capital punishment Laws to be more of a preventative pressure rather than punitive. This was to the extent that when the Sicarii were running around and people were being killed in broad daylight, they understood that these punishments no longer had that ability to prevent murder, so they actually moved the Sanhedrin off the Temple Mount so as not to be capable of trying these cases. Eventually the Sanhedrin was disbanded, and we lost an important element required for a Rabbi to sit on one, so we've never recovered our ability to try these cases.

Thanks, and if you don't mind, I have another question. The Baha'is use the "Edict of Toleration" as a fulfillment of the Jews returning to their homeland. This is very important to them, because it happened in 1844, the year their religion started. So my question is just how important was this edict to the Jews? Was it when Jews were finally allowed to return to their homeland?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks, and if you don't mind, I have another question. The Baha'is use the "Edict of Toleration" as a fulfillment of the Jews returning to their homeland. This is very important to them, because it happened in 1844, the year their religion started. So my question is just how important was this edict to the Jews? Was it when Jews were finally allowed to return to their homeland?

CG. I see that document as the sun at dawn. The first light that day is arriving.

You will not get anything from it but the dawn of a new day, you will not get midday sun confirmation.

That document was opening the door.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That could be a preterist view but not the conservative evangelical Christian perspective that was outlined in the link.

What are the times of the Gentiles?

One of the enormous achievements of Christianity was Jesus took Judaism and the Divine Teachings of the Tanakh beyond the confines of Judaism when He commanded His disciples to preach the gospel to all nations. However the sermon about the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled is about end times.

We need to consider the context of Luke 21 as a whole where Jesus is talking about His Return. He says;

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 21:24

So He is talking about the plight of the Jewish peoples and Jerusalem. So the captivity and exile of the Jewish people is linked to the time of the Gentiles. So its partly about preaching of the Gospels. An important aspect is the end of the Jewish exile and their return to Jerusalem. The significant advance in the process of the Jewish peoples being enabled to return to their homeland was the signing of the Edict of toleration in 1844. This coincided with the missionary work that brought the Gospel to the last of the nations by the mid 19th century.

Did Christians really take the Jewish teachings out to all the nations? Or, did they say that anybody that converted to Christianity could pretty much ignore the Law? Jesus tells them to preach the gospel. I know what the "gospel" is to evangelical Christians. And, since that gospel negates both Islam and the Baha'i Faith, then what do Baha'is believe to be the "true" gospel of Jesus?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you reading the Arabic Quran or what? It doesn't say that.., it says that the people of the Book should uphold the Tora and the Gospel. And that the people of the Gospel should judge with the Gospel. The Quran teaches to believe in the Books and the Prophets.

It's not my problem that the majority of the 'Muslims' do not do that..

That cannot be right, for NO Muslim obeys the gospel, where Jesus says, "You must be BORN AGAIN to even see the heavenly kingdom!" (John 3:3, 3:7, 3:16-17)

 

[CG Didymus]

It makes more sense for the comforter Whom Jesus spoke to be a man.

Jesus was a Comforter because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit. Muhammad was another Comforter and He was also the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It makes no sense that the Comforter is a disembodied Holy Spirit because a disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do the things mentioned in the following verses.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Muhammad did all these things as Jesus promised He would. We taught that it is not enough to follow Him but all the prophets who have gone before Him.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
Quran 3:84

The argument about Jesus being a sinner is the same argument the Jews used about Christ breaking the Sabbath. However both Muhammad and Jesus had the authority from God to bring new laws, reinterpret the existing ones and dispense with those that were no longer relevant.

Acts chapter 2:

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
...concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.​

I'm sure Christians can give you more verses that show that it was the Holy Spirit that was promised by Jesus. But, another important thing in these verses, is that Peter affirms to these people he' addressing that Jesus did not stay dead... his body did not decay.

So I have to agree with Christians. That the NT says that Jesus rose from the dead... That He promised to send the Holy Spirit to comfort them and to guide them.

The Baha'is have flipped all this around. They say Jesus is dead, and his body did decay and rotted away. And, the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth and the Comforter are not a spiritual being, but are prophecies about manifestations to come. But, the quote from Acts says that the Holy Spirit is the one that descended on Pentecost. So how do Baha'is explain those verses?

 

[BilliardsBall]

All the statements of Quran regarding corruption of Gospel or Torah, are with regards to corruption in interpretations, Not the Texts of the Holy Books.
There is a general misunderstanding about this among the Muslims.

If that is true, then why do no Muslims obey Jesus's command to be born again?

" " why do no Muslims regard Jesus as God, since Jesus was crucified for claiming to be God?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are simply taking verses of the Quran out of context. The Quraysh tribe who were pagans relentlessly tried to destroy Muhammad and His followers. If you apply your standard to Muhammad, then we should apply the same standard to the Yahweh who orders the killing of the Canaanites in the book of Joshua.



Not true. Not everyone who declares allegiance to Jesus goes to heaven (Matthew 25:31-46).



Jesus is the image of G-d.

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus is spiritual incarnation of G-d not physical

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.



This was probably an argument against gnosticism where some believe Jesus to be a spirit and not have a physical body.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

In the four gospels, Christ was crucified for claiming to be God, to be One with God, to be the Messiah at the right hand/power of God, and the Lord of Judgment Day.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is a book of guidance of how to know and Love God and of Prophecy that tells of a day when that knowledge will be desired by all people.

As such it tells of how the future will unfold in veiled metephor. This is done so those that do want to know and love God can do so with genuine effort. The search has to be genuine and not in any way be motivated by self interest.

Thus from a Baha'i perspective the Bible tells us of the Revelation of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and of events in History that can show us we are still seeing the Christ Spirit in those Messages.

To me, this has become a great proof that the Bible is indeed great and divine guidance.

Regards Tony

Yes, the Bible is great. A great fantasy story... if the Baha'is are right. You say it is not history. So the "history" in it is myth. No Creation, no Flood, no parting the seas, no resurrection, no Satan, no hell... but all the prophecies are dead on? That is, if you have the spiritual eyes to discern their dead on-ness.

Jews get what they want out of it. Christians get what they want out of it. Moslems get what they want out of it. And, Baha'is get what they want out of it. Only problem, they all get something different out of it. So, since all of them can't be right, the Baha'is have pointed out how, all the other religions that use the Bible, have got it wrong. Only Baha'is can see the real truth within its pages.