Does The Koran Teach "Kill The Infidels"

[Popeyesays]

Ah, the high, soft laughter of the dhimmis from the quarter.

YThe quote offered by Francine is not a very good translation.

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Neither Rodwell, nor Palmer translate it that way either.

Regards,
Scott

 

[roli]

Christians also used to teach that the path to God was to destroy infidels (Muslims) so its not only extremist muslims, but in history Christians.
I was told that "killing infidels"was a biblical misinterpretation? Please correct me if im wrong.

The Roman Catholics were not acting on behalf of God but there own agenda.
Christ did not leave that example.
The same people who killed Christ were of the same stock of those who killed muslims and jews on Christ's behalf.

Those who killed Christ were blind to who Christ was and killed the savior of the world

 

[Smoke]

YThe quote offered by Francine is not a very good translation.

The jizya, and in fact dhimmitude in general, is just a mitigated form of slavery. I'm still not impressed.

 

[Popeyesays]

The jizya, and in fact dhimmitude in general, is just a mitigated form of slavery. I'm still not impressed.

Then you should take comfort in the fact that dhimmitude has not existed for more than a hundred years since there is no caliph to collect the tax.

In Muslim countries today any non-Muslim is just as subject to the military draft as any muslim is in all those countries.

Shariah ceased to exist around 1900CE. Ther is no Caliph anymore to administer it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[McBell]

The Roman Catholics were not acting on behalf of God but there own agenda.
Christ did not leave that example.
The same people who killed Christ were of the same stock of those who killed muslims and jews on Christ's behalf.

Those who killed Christ were blind to who Christ was and killed the savior of the world

Opinion.
One that can be easily refuted by using the Old Testament.

 

[kai]

Then you should take comfort in the fact that dhimmitude has not existed for more than a hundred years since there is no caliph to collect the tax.
you should not take comfort in that fact because without jizya there is no protection
In Muslim countries today any non-Muslim is just as subject to the military draft as any muslim is in all those countries. and this is a good thing? they have always been drafted into the military

Shariah ceased to exist around 1900CE. Ther is no Caliph anymore to administer it.
Shariah is alive and well and making a comeback,
Regards,
Scott

Sharia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Popeyesays]

Sharia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, paying jizya excuses non-muslims from the draft under Shariah. Shariah no longer exists, it can't with no Caliphate to receive it.

Of course, it was possible for a non-Muslim to decline to pay jizyah and serve in the military instead. Such was the case with Nestorian Christians in Persia. There were special regiments for Christians in the Persian army. It was very unusual for a Jew or a Parsee to serve in the military, but Christians often did.

Regards,
Scott

 

[roli]

Opinion.
One that can be easily refuted by using the Old Testament.

What I was referring to was those people who claim christian title in the days of the crusades.

They were religious fanatics hearing not from God but there own agenda !

You want to talk old testament stories of why God actually had his enimies killed, there is a difference if you would take the time to study those.

It won't register with you because you and I put together will never comprehend what God considers justice and retribution.

Tell me what you know about what God said regarding killing.

 

[McBell]

What I was referring to was those people who claim christian title in the days of the crusades.

They were religious fanatics hearing not from God but there own agenda !

You want to talk old testament stories of why God actually had his enimies killed, there is a difference if you would take the time to study those.

It won't register with you because you and I put together will never comprehend what God considers justice and retribution.

Tell me what you know about what God said regarding killing.

One,
it is still merely your opinion.
Two,
your opinion can easily be refuted with the OT.
Three,
your attempt to support your opinion with more opinion does not help your opinion.
Four,
number three is merely my opinion.
Five,
This is off topic.


If you want to pursue this offtopicness further, i suggest you start another thread.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

The jizya, and in fact dhimmitude in general, is just a mitigated form of slavery. I'm still not impressed.

You do realize that in Islamic State, the tax of Zakat on muslims is far greater than the value of Jizya. And, Jizya is only to be paid by those non-muslims, who can afford to pay it. Example can be taken of Hazrat Umar, who when found a poor old non-mulim, working hard to get some money, exempted him from paying Jizya. This shows, that in a Islamic state non-muslims who can afford to pay Jizya, are the ones who are liable to pay it.

 

[Smoke]

Sorry, paying jizya excuses non-muslims from the draft under Shariah.

Dhimmis were not so much excused from the draft as forbidden to bear weapons. One exception, of course, was hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves, prisoners of war, and young boys taken forcibly from their families, forcibly converted to Islam, and used to form the Janissary corps.

Shariah no longer exists

It's surprising that Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, and Nigeria are unaware of that. Based on a recent thread here, even Muslims in Britain are unaware of it.

Of course, it was possible for a non-Muslim to decline to pay jizyah and serve in the military instead. Such was the case with Nestorian Christians in Persia.

You do realize that in Islamic State, the tax of Zakat on muslims is far greater than the value of Jizya. And, Jizya is only to be paid by those non-muslims, who can afford to pay it. Example can be taken of Hazrat Umar, who when found a poor old non-mulim, working hard to get some money, exempted him from paying Jizya. This shows, that in a Islamic state non-muslims who can afford to pay Jizya, are the ones who are liable to pay it.

The jizya was, like other aspects of dhimmitude, unevenly applied over the centuries. In some times and places, the burden was relatively light. In others, the jizya was very oppressive. In some cases mercy was shown to those unable to pay, and in other cases, no mercy was shown. Since Muhammad set no fixed rate of jizya, the practice was -- like most of the forms of oppression of non-Muslims -- up to the whims of the people enforcing it.

 

[kai]

Sorry, paying jizya excuses non-muslims from the draft under Shariah. Shariah no longer exists, it can't with no Caliphate to receive it.
you are agreeing with me jizya no longer exists
Of course, it was possible for a non-Muslim to decline to pay jizyah and serve in the military instead. Such was the case with Nestorian Christians in Persia. There were special regiments for Christians in the Persian army. It was very unusual for a Jew or a Parsee to serve in the military, but Christians often did.

Regards,
Scott

like i said no jizya no protection

 

[Popeyesays]

like i said no jizya no protection

We used to have a Pax Brittanica too. Such things are not eternal.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

We used to have a Pax Brittanica too. Such things are not eternal.

Regards,
Scott

yes and pax romana all based on conquest and empires and taxes

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

The jizya is a tax applied to non-muslims because all the cictizens of the country are expected to put forth money to run it and for that government to offer services. The obligatory tax of zakat is obligatory on muslims only. Because of this religious stipulation it would be unfair to make zakat obligatory on non-muslims, because they do not recognize Islam as their religion. So therefore a tax is applied, but under a secular banner more than a religious one. The jizya is not meant as a form of oppression becuase a citizen paying taxes is not being oppressed because of taxes. What it is meant to do was uphold the rights of any and all non-muslims is a muslim state to reap any and all benefits that any muslim would reap from the islamic system, while at the same time exempting them from participating in acts they may not want to do such as war. A non-muslim may simply not want to defend a state in a war that is probably religious in nature, simply because he/she does not accept that religion. So the muslim cannot expect a non-muslim to want to, or make them have to fulfill such a thing as to give their lives potentially in war to defend Islam nor its territories. In any case where a non-muslim is too poor to pay such a tax, then they are excused until such time as they can pay it. If that time never comes they never have to pay.


So it's not like the jizya is an extortion, because muslims also must pay taxes. The tax system is not exclusive to the non-muslims. Everyone in the country able to pay taxes must pay them. This is how any government collects the money to offer services to its citizens. It really is no different than the tax system in America. The one in America is oppressive in a way because it doesn't really allow for a person not to be able to pay. If I work any kind of job, no matter how meager the pay, I am obliged to pay income tax as well as taxes on most things I buy. If I don't there is no respite. The IRS is relentless in the collection of the money you supposedly owe them. They go so far as to make a person homeless and jobless.

 

[rheff78]

The Roman Catholics were not acting on behalf of God but there own agenda.
Christ did not leave that example.
The same people who killed Christ were of the same stock of those who killed muslims and jews on Christ's behalf.

Those who killed Christ were blind to who Christ was and killed the savior of the world

ah ah ah. Careful. In order for Christ to be the savior of the world he had to be killed us.

 

[Smoke]

The jizya is not meant as a form of oppression becuase a citizen paying taxes is not being oppressed because of taxes.

Al Zamakhshari says:

The Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck.​

 

[Popeyesays]

Al Zamakhshari says:

The Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck.​

The man died in 1144CE more than five hundred years after Muhammed. His opinions are not relevant to Muhammed.

regards,
Scott

 

[Smoke]

The man died in 1144CE more than five hundred years after Muhammed. His opinions are not relevant to Muhammed.

Maybe all Muslims actually follow an entirely different religion from Muhammad's.

 

[Popeyesays]

Maybe all Muslims actually follow an entirely different religion from Muhammad's.

Some follow their own imaginings and some may not. It does not alter the fact that there is no jizyah in existence. God has settled the matter.

Regards,
Scott