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Does the OT apply to Christians?

Shermana

Heretic
In God's kingdom, peace will be given and maintained for all creation. Does this mean we will all favor or understand and do the same things? No. Some will do this and others that, but no one will bring conflict to the other for what they do.

The scriptures say nothing about ALL creation. In fact, it says most of the world will be unable to get into the New Jerusalem, and that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The only way there will be no conflict is if everyone believes and acts in accordance to the rules of the Kingdom: I.e. no room for "interpretation" or deviation from the original way.

From whence do you derive such a conclusion which goes against the gist of the scripture?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The scriptures say nothing about ALL creation. In fact, it says most of the world will be unable to get into the New Jerusalem, and that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The only way there will be no conflict is if everyone believes and acts in accordance to the rules of the Kingdom: I.e. no room for "interpretation" or deviation from the original way.

From whence do you derive such a conclusion which goes against the gist of the scripture?

Do you know why men die?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Just passing by, but has anyone taken into account the Noadithe seven original laws of Noah?

bernard (hug)

The concept of the Noahide laws are a purely Rabbinical concept that have absolutely no scriptural basis.

At best there is some sort of mention in the Book of Jubilees but that in itself is up to dispute as to what it means exactly.
 

Avoice

Active Member
(Romans 1:28-32) 28*And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29*filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30*backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31*without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32*Although these know full well the righteous decree of God,.*.*.

Seems pretty clear from these verses from Romans that violating the 10 commandments is pretty much of the flesh and obeying them of the Spirit.

(Hebrews 10:26, 27) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

If a Christian truly has Jehovah's holy spirit, then the 10 commandments are summed up "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul..." and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
@ Shermana

O.k. serious questions her, that I don't think you've ever explained, or if you did it was another thread and I missed it................
Why would Jewish Christians, who suppose kept Torah True, become 'Nazarenes', necessarily. Why wouldn't they just be Torah True Christians?
Why would Torah True Christians want to adhere to your version of the Bible? Have you compiled your own bible?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Why would Jewish Christians, who suppose kept Torah True, become 'Nazarenes
',

The word "Nazarene" refers to a KNOWN early sect of Jewish Christians. You may as well ask why they'd become Ebionite, their cousin group. The word "Nazarene" is basically "A sect of Torah True Christians", so why wouldn't they become Nazarenes? That's kind of like asking "Why would a Christian become Protestant"? What I believe is that the "Nazarenes" were, in Biblical terms, the most recognized sect of Jewish Torah-True followers of Jesus, along with the Ebionites. I don't think there were too many different names for the similarly minded sects, even if they were still in factions. And there's also the chance that what the Church Fathers wrote about them may have been not entirely accurate, like the Ebionite disdain for meat and wine.

What we know Biblically speaking, is that the authors of the Bible referred to the earliest known group of "Christians" as "Nazarenes". Even Paul was known as the "Ringleader of the Nazarenes", indicating that even before the gentiles were preached to, the "Chrisitans" were being known by this title, there's little reason to believe that only the Pauline version being preached to the gentiles was called "Nazarenes" only later.



necessarily. Why wouldn't they just be Torah True Christians?

Because there were only so many different groups and communities to choose from, and the "Nazarenes" were apparently one of those few, and Biblically speaking, most likely the original.

Why would Torah True Christians want to adhere to your version of the Bible?

Why would Protestants want to adhere to your version?

Besides, what is "My version of the Bible"? They didn't likely have the same "Version of the Bible" as the Orthodox came up with centuries later.

With that said, your question involves essentially proving a negative. Why would they NOT be interested in "My version of the Bible"? I should more likely ask "Why would they follow YOUR version of the Bible".

Try rephrasing your question to be more clear. As far as I'm concerned, I try to figure out what parts of the Bible were authentic and interpolated to the best of my estimation, and I can only imagine that they went with a "Version" that they considered closest to the original, which was most likely 100% Torah True and not interpolated with lawlessness.

Besides, there is evidence among Church Father writings that many of them rejected Paul, some of them only went by Matthew, and other variations among what they believed.

They weren't exactly a completely unified group and just like every other early Christian group prior to the rise of the proto-Orthodox, they had their own arguments and opinions on what was canonical and what wasn't.

Have you compiled your own bible?

I have my own books that I consider Canonical, just like Iraneus and Clement and Origen and others did. You're aware there were numerous competing canons circulating at the time right?
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
',

The word "Nazarene" refers to a KNOWN early sect of Jewish Christians. You may as well ask why they'd become Ebionite, their cousin group. The word "Nazarene" is basically "A sect of Torah True Christians", so why wouldn't they become Nazarenes? That's kind of like asking "Why would a Christian become Protestant"? What I believe is that the "Nazarenes" were, in Biblical terms, the most recognized sect of Jewish Torah-True followers of Jesus, along with the Ebionites. I don't think there were too many different names for the similarly minded sects, even if they were still in factions. And there's also the chance that what the Church Fathers wrote about them may have been not entirely accurate, like the Ebionite disdain for meat and wine.

What we know Biblically speaking, is that the authors of the Bible referred to the earliest known group of "Christians" as "Nazarenes". Even Paul was known as the "Ringleader of the Nazarenes", indicating that even before the gentiles were preached to, the "Chrisitans" were being known by this title, there's little reason to believe that only the Pauline version being preached to the gentiles was called "Nazarenes" only later.





Because there were only so many different groups and communities to choose from, and the "Nazarenes" were apparently one of those few, and Biblically speaking, most likely the original.



Why would Protestants want to adhere to your version?

Besides, what is "My version of the Bible"? They didn't likely have the same "Version of the Bible" as the Orthodox came up with centuries later.

With that said, your question involves essentially proving a negative. Why would they NOT be interested in "My version of the Bible"? I should more likely ask "Why would they follow YOUR version of the Bible".

Try rephrasing your question to be more clear. As far as I'm concerned, I try to figure out what parts of the Bible were authentic and interpolated to the best of my estimation, and I can only imagine that they went with a "Version" that they considered closest to the original, which was most likely 100% Torah True and not interpolated with lawlessness.

Besides, there is evidence among Church Father writings that many of them rejected Paul, some of them only went by Matthew, and other variations among what they believed.

They weren't exactly a completely unified group and just like every other early Christian group prior to the rise of the proto-Orthodox, they had their own arguments and opinions on what was canonical and what wasn't.



I have my own books that I consider Canonical, just like Iraneus and Clement and Origen and others did. You're aware there were numerous competing canons circulating at the time right?

Essene>Nazarene is what I've read, that's actually why I was having a difficult time finding references to the Nazarenes, I think. I don't have a problem with the whole NT, that's what I'm saying. Even if a Christian was Torah True why would that change their view on the Bible?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Essene>Nazarene is what I've read, that's actually why I was having a difficult time finding references to the Nazarenes, I think. I don't have a problem with the whole NT, that's what I'm saying. Even if a Christian was Torah True why would that change their view on the Bible?


The main issue is of Paul who becomes a major snag when it comes to whether one must be "Torah true". I personally have taken the opinion that he was a false apostle and that his writings are at best a reflection of one particular opinion rather than THE opinion.

However, modern self-claimed "Nazarenes" like James Scott Trimm go to great lengths to vindicate Paul and say that he was not teaching abandoning the Law, but was simply misunderstood (and mistranslated), and some of his arguments are fairly convincing.

I do agree that the Essenes may have been a proto-Nazarene group but this view is not easy to defend.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The main issue is of Paul who becomes a major snag when it comes to whether one must be "Torah true". I personally have taken the opinion that he was a false apostle and that his writings are at best a reflection of one particular opinion rather than THE opinion.

I don't hold that view. Not everything in the later NT may be in complete agreement to what you believe, but I don't think it is actually contradictory. Perhaps we're just interpreting scripture differently.

However, modern self-claimed "Nazarenes" like James Scott Trimm go to great lengths to vindicate Paul and say that he was not teaching abandoning the Law, but was simply misunderstood (and mistranslated), and some of his arguments are fairly convincing.

Sounds like someone I would agree with, haven't read any of his commentary though.

I do agree that the Essenes may have been a proto-Nazarene group but this view is not easy to defend.

I've read it from a reliable source. Seems like a good thread topic regardless.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Indeed, interpretation is of course a large issue.

Some say that when Jesus said he came to "Fulfill" the Law that he meant to do away with it (Though the memo apparently got lost on the disciples until later), though they don't seem to apply the same meaning of "fulfill" when Paul says to "Fulfill the Law of Christ". And their arguments for verses like 1 John 5:3 are just plain....wrong. (I.e. saying that "The only commandment is to love", and then dodging and dancing when asked to define what "love" means outside of the context of the Law).

Some say that Christ undid the Sabbath but as I've shown on many threads, even many non-Sabbath-keeping (And Sabbath keeping) groups agree that this was not the case and it was the Pharisee's interpretation that he undid. A common problem is that many don't seem to understand what exactly Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for and wrongly assume he was rebuking them for obeying the Law itself rather than their own (artificial) interpretation of it.

Others say he did away with the dietary Laws (or that they were done away with at Peter's vision) and some translations even (mischieviously) distort the grammar from present tense to past such as in Mark 7:14 to achieve this effect, totally ignoring the actual context of the actual issue to drive their doctrine-at-stake.

All of these issues I have debated countless times on forums like this and in real life, and the arguments and "interpretations" for saying the Law was no longer in effect even for Jewish Christians always fall flat, and very few of them are even aware what Acts 21 says in the first place, or they take the extreme position and say James was totally wrong.

If you want to see examples of James Scott Trimm's arguments, here is what I believe is his site, Nazarenespace. If you are of the view that Paul did not teach lawlessness then you would be agreeing that Paul meant for the Law to stay in force even for gentiles, which is his position.

James Trimm's Page - Nazarene Space
 
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bnabernard

Member
Shermana
I understood that the Essenes and Nazerenes were the same sect, and somehow related to the Ebionites, that the Essenes of Qumaran were a celibate group the Naserenes of Mt Carmel were family orientated and preparing their young women to be acceptable.

I've been through a number of sites and found a few


as you have perhaps spent more time studying various sites have you a link to any other sites, I was going to post a site but I do not qualify untill I've made sufficient post's.

bernard (hug)
 

Shermana

Heretic
Shermana
I understood that the Essenes and Nazerenes were the same sect, and somehow related to the Ebionites, that the Essenes of Qumaran were a celibate group the Naserenes of Mt Carmel were family orientated and preparing their young women to be acceptable.

I've been through a number of sites and found a few


as you have perhaps spent more time studying various sites have you a link to any other sites, I was going to post a site but I do not qualify untill I've made sufficient post's.

bernard (hug)

I definitely believe there is a connection between the Essenes. the Qumran community (and the subsequent scrolls) and the Nazarenes and Ebionites. It was one of my first points of discussion on this forum when I joined, and I quickly was called out on providing the exact evidence for such claims which I was pretty much unable to provide other than a few speculative websites that provided little in the actual evidence department. It is however something I believe is more than just plausible and rather, likely.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
(According to the argument being presented regarding the Laws)

Moaic Law-->Jews
Noahide Law--> non-Jews
I'm not advocating either one, just clearing up the difference.
 

Shermana

Heretic
(According to the argument being presented regarding the Laws)

Moaic Law-->Jews
Noahide Law--> non-Jews
I'm not advocating either one, just clearing up the difference.

And again, there is no scriptural basis for the Noahide Laws, it's a purely Rabbinical concept and the basis of it is murky to begin with.
 
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