Does the Soul Exist?

[Thermos aquaticus]

For one thing, during meditation, the brain outputs large amounts of Alpha waves, not the case during normal waking hours.

If you are awake while you meditate, then it is the case during waking hours.

Mediators actually grow thicker cortexes than non-meditators. And mediation rewires the neural network.

Waking activity also rewires neural pathways.

Right. It, like the difference between sleep with dreams and the waking state, is a shift in consciousness away from ordinary waking consciousness. The ultimate shift is that of the enlightened state, a radical transformation of consciousness.

If you were asleep and dreaming, and I suggested to you that there is a higher state of consciousness beyond your dream state, you would not know about wakefulness; your dream is reality for you, and you would think yourself already awake. When you awaken, however, it is immediately apparent to you that your dream was illusory. So waking up is the evidence from one level of consciousness to the next. Likewise, a further awakening from your so-called 'waking state' will reveal to you it's illusory nature.

Those are just bare assertions. Where is the evidence that this reality is illusory?

 

[godnotgod]

If you are awake while you meditate, then it is the case during waking hours.



Waking activity also rewires neural pathways.



Those are just bare assertions. Where is the evidence that this reality is illusory?

Awakening from this ordinary 'reality' to the next higher level of Consciousness, which is called Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, or 'The Observer'. You don't know that you are in a dream, because everything you know via perceptual reality tells you it is real.

From a mystical POV, the only way you would know that is via a transformation of your current conditioned awareness to that of an unconditioned view. Part of that process is the re-ordering of the brain's neural network. Having said that, Quantum Physics is now telling us that what we previously thought to be solid material particles, are not particles at all, but standing waves, appearing as particles*. IOW, there is no material reality. But Quantum Physics is just scratching the surface of 'reality', which the mystics have been telling us is illusion for thousands of years. Once the mystic has pierced the facade of a 'material reality', he now seeks That which is responsible for it. But the seeker is unaware of something very peculiar: That which he is seeking, is what is causing him to seek. In fact, That which the man of science seeks is also causing him to seek, but he is unaware of it. He thinks HE is the seeker. Until that realization occurs, the seeker will get nowhere. The Hindus have a saying for this. It is 'Thou Art That', or 'Tat tvam asi'. But that part of the mystery is for another thread.

*The following is for the science and math types. I don't understand it, but here it is:

Mathematical proof that the electron is a spherical electromagnetic standing wave

Let's find the 'mass' of a spherical standing wave having the same diameter and charge of the electron:

Starting from the equation for the capacitance of an isolated spherical charge: C= 4.p.e0.r
The total internal energy stored in an electromagnetic standing wave = Electric field energy + Magnetic field energy, where Electric field energy = Magnetic field energy, hence:
Total internal energy E = 2 * Electric field Energy = 2 * Magnetic field energy ... so it's enough if we solve for one of these to get the total internal energy for an electron.

Total internal energy E = 2 * Electrical Energy = 2* (1/2QV) = QV ... where V=Q/C
Total internal energy E = Q2/C ... substitiuting for C, we get
Total internal energy E = Q2/(4.p.e0.r), Substitiuting for Q=electron charge=1.602E-19 Coulombs, r=classical electron radius= 2.8179E-15 m, and e0 = permittivity of free space = 8.854E-12 F/m
Total internal energy E = 8.18735E-14 Joules
Using E=mc2, we get
Electron standing wave mass = 9.1096E-31kg ... which is the known electron mass.

This clearly shows that what we call electron mass is nothing but the electromagnetic effect of a spherical standing wave.

source: The Particle: The new proposed atom model

"Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept "empty space" loses its meaning. Since the theory of general relativity implies the representation of physical reality by a continuous field, the concept of particles or material points cannot play a fundamental part, nor can the concept of motion. The particle can only appear as a limited region in space in which the field strength or the energy density are particularly high."
Albert Einstein

Erwin Schroedinger understood the requirements of particle structure when he wrote in 1937: "What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space."
The Particle: The big flaws of the atom model

So now I ask you: Where is the evidence that this 'material reality' is real?

 

[godnotgod]

If you are awake while you meditate, then it is the case during waking hours.

The output of large amounts of alpha waves do not occur without the meditative state, even though both are during normal waking hours. What I meant to say by 'normal waking hours' is that we are in a state of perceptual reality. Mediation is the pathway to a state of consciousness transcendent of perceptual reality.

Waking activity also rewires neural pathways.

But not for higher states of consciousness. A concerted effort must be made toward that, but not via Logic, Reason, or clinical Analysis, that is to say, not via the intellect. The Zen koan is designed to cause the implosion of the rational mind when it exhausts itself in it's futile attempt to 'figure it out', because there is nothing to figure out.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Awakening from this ordinary 'reality' to the next higher level of Consciousness, which is called Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, or 'The Observer'. You don't know that you are in a dream, because everything you know via perceptual reality tells you it is real.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The output of large amounts of alpha waves do not occur without the meditative state, even though both are during normal waking hours. What I meant to say by 'normal waking hours' is that we are in a state of perceptual reality. Mediation is the pathway to a state of consciousness transcendent of perceptual reality.



But not for higher states of consciousness. A concerted effort must be made toward that, but not via Logic, Reason, or clinical Analysis, that is to say, not via the intellect. The Zen koan is designed to cause the implosion of the rational mind when it exhausts itself in it's futile attempt to 'figure it out', because there is nothing to figure out.

You haven't shown that there are higher state, only different states.

 

[godnotgod]

You haven't shown that there are higher state, only different states.

Yes, that also is correct. The dreamer is the same conscious person who is awake. But we consider dreaming to be an illusory state, while the awakened state to be reality. So in that sense, the awakened state is 'higher' than the dream state. But as I said, there are a few levels even higher than what the ordinary man thinks of as being 'awake'. This state, the Third Level of Consciousness, is called Identification, or Waking Sleep, in which man is not truly awake. Only by a further awakening onto the Fourth Level does true awakening begin, that of Self-Transcendence.

 

[godnotgod]

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

It is like a bird raised in captivity; it does not know the freedom of flight. It cannot be demonstrated, but only experienced first-hand, just as you, when asleep, dreaming, have no knowledge of the awakened state, and when in the awakened state, have no knowledge of a yet higher state of wakefulness. But the existence of a state of consciousness higher than the one you currently experience can be verified directly. Meditation and breath control is one pathway to realization. I can tell you this: that even a glimpse of a higher state will convince you.

 

[1robin]

I've been reading a bit about the brain and it seems that science is showing more and more that the physical brain is responsible for all thoughts, actions and processes. Even our personality is determined in parts of the physical brain. If the brain does everything, then what is the use of a soul? Since it has no function it is safe to say it does not exist. The brain stops working, you die. You don't miraculously enter an afterlife.
What is your opinion?

If you equate "mind" with "soul" I can give you some philosophical arguments for dualism. Is this something you would like to discuss? Mind body dualism is a very interesting subject.

 

[TruePathFinder]

If you equate "mind" with "soul" I can give you some philosophical arguments for dualism. Is this something you would like to discuss? Mind body dualism is a very interesting subject.

Thank you, but I think scientific dicoveries of how the brain works will show us how the mind and consciousness is created by the brain. Up to now we've seen neuroscience show how simpler functions are created by the brain. Why should more complex functions have supernatural explanations?

 

[1robin]

Thank you, but I think scientific dicoveries of how the brain works will show us how the mind and consciousness is created by the brain. Up to now we've seen neuroscience show how simpler functions are created by the brain. Why should more complex functions have supernatural explanations?

It appears you presume my claims are wrong before hand. You can't disagree with arguments I have yet to provide. There are many scientific and especially philosophic arguments for dualism which are inescapable, however I do not want to take the time to provide them unless you are open minded enough to at least consider them. So far I am doubtful of your sincerity.

 

[godnotgod]

Thank you, but I think scientific dicoveries of how the brain works will show us how the mind and consciousness is created by the brain. Up to now we've seen neuroscience show how simpler functions are created by the brain. Why should more complex functions have supernatural explanations?

The hard question, however, remains: how does a material brain, via chemicals and electrical charge, create non-material consciousness, and especially self-consciousness, that operates live, in the here and now, from moment to moment, and capable of responding spontaneously? This is no small feat, though it is looked at quite casually by science. Some scientists do away with the hard question entirely by stating that the electro-chemistry is all there is, and that consciousness is an illusion. Convenient.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Does it really? When you dream, you think the dream-world 'exists', until you awaken and realize its illusory nature. Because of the perceptual world, man thinks this means 'reality'. But some say that this world of perception is also a dream, only one of a higher caliber than that of the sleep-dream world.

When have you ever been separated from The Absolute? Separation means that you are relative to The Absolute, making The Absolute also a relative condition. That cannot be the case, since The Absolute is Everything that is, including you. There is no relative 'other' to which The Absolute can be compared. The notion of 'separation' is only an illusion of the mind.

Because the illusion is unreal, the only true Reality is The Absolute, so any 'dichotomy' is only a seeming one that only exists in the mind.

Whether this 'material' world is real or not does matter, because if it is in fact an illusion, then you would want to know what is creating that illusion to get to what is the true Reality.

In the meantime, who is it that suffers? Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies? If there is no self that exists, that is, if the self in an illusion; a fiction, then what is the true nature of Reality?

Dreams certainly exist and are part of our reality regardless of labelling them an "illusion" or not. Either waking or dreaming, our reality is a model created from sensory data gathered from limited senses and filtered through a discriminating mind. It is, and we agree here, a part of the Absolute: the sum total of all things.

But our minds, like razors, slice this Absolute into palatable chunks to be digested. Or like composers selecting particular notes, timbre, rhythm, to create new songs. Kingdoms within kingdoms. Two sides of a coin.

If the self is an illusion, then it is as illusory as the phone I am typing on, this post I am responding to, or the table my beer is sitting on. In this life, does it matter? The nature of reality appears to be dynamic. For us as perceiving beings, perception (with relationship at its core) would be our best definition for it, maybe? It is our basis for reality and beyond it is the infinity of the undefined.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Yes, that also is correct. The dreamer is the same conscious person who is awake. But we consider dreaming to be an illusory state, while the awakened state to be reality. So in that sense, the awakened state is 'higher' than the dream state. But as I said, there are a few levels even higher than what the ordinary man thinks of as being 'awake'. This state, the Third Level of Consciousness, is called Identification, or Waking Sleep, in which man is not truly awake. Only by a further awakening onto the Fourth Level does true awakening begin, that of Self-Transcendence.

Any evidence for these other levels?

 

[godnotgod]

Any evidence for these other levels?

I already explained that confirmation is only via direct experience. You realize the dream you thought was real only via awakening.

 

[TruePathFinder]

It appears you presume my claims are wrong before hand. You can't disagree with arguments I have yet to provide. There are many scientific and especially philosophic arguments for dualism which are inescapable, however I do not want to take the time to provide them unless you are open minded enough to at least consider them. So far I am doubtful of your sincerity.

Philosophy cannot answer the question. Philisophy in this case is only playing with words. Science can answer, but much is still not perfectly understood. If you have scientific input, please do give it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Admitting you could be entirely wrong, then why take the position that you do? Don't take any position; then you're free. Science still cannot answer the question as to how the material brain creates non-material consciousness. In some cases, it conveniently dismisses the 'hard question' of consciousness by simply stating that brain chemistry IS consciousness, and some go even further to say that consciousness is just an illusion, while both are using consciousness to do so!

My intuition is that religions are just man-made explanations for this particular area - may or may not be correct - but just don't make any sense to me - not in the context along with all else we now know about humans and their fallibilities. Consciousness is all I know. Why would I want more? Just as so for life.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I am glad you got some soldiers... I need some of those myself.

I am not moving as fast as I would like but at least I am getting close to having all the bids I will need to select a roofer for the roof job... I have six bids and two more coming in this week. Eight should be enough for me to compare and choose one company.

After that there is more interior work that needs to be done after that but I can only do one thing at a time...

As for our yard, if you can call it that – holy moly! About a week or so ago we were missing a cat and so I had to go downstairs and into the cats’ fenced yard. Having not been in there for years, it has all grown up, trees and bushes, so I could barely walk through the jungle. The rest of the property is in similar condition, since the grass has not been mowed and no trees or bushes have been trimmed in years... I have decided to just let it grow wild because I do not have the time to even find a landscaper. We live in a fortress so nobody can see it, thank God.

I hope you get somewhere favourable at least. After my satisafaction at some gardening success, I was brought down to earth by breaking both my ankles in a rather unexplainable incident. Still waiting to find out why this might have happened - and this written from hospital, where I have at last managed to get back on the internet.

These things are sent to try us.

 

[godnotgod]

My intuition is that religions are just man-made explanations for this particular area - may or may not be correct - but just don't make any sense to me - not in the context along with all else we now know about humans and their fallibilities. Consciousness is all I know. Why would I want more? Just as so for life.

The question here is really about the self. If, via meditative insight, you come to realize that there is no self, it will then become clear to you that consciousness is not 'my' consciousness, but a universal consciousness that has been sculpted into an illusory and personal view of reality called 'I'. 'I' is the ego, and it wants to go on in perpetuity after death. That is what religion is for; to reinforce the idea of an eternal soul that is the self that must be saved. OTOH, there is the purely materialist view which says 'when you're dead, you're dead!'. (The Buddha, BTW, considered both views to be extreme views, and a view was eventually developed called 'The Middle Path'.) So without a self, and consciousness always present, it must mean that consciousness is already present at birth and after death, as it is not dependent upon the presence of a self, or a brain. Consciousness has been likened to the TV signal, present before the TV set is turned on and after being turned off, or becoming non-functional. But it is more than just signal; it is what actually manifests this material world. Who you really are is what Universal Consciousness is, playing itself as 'I', 'self', and 'soul' named 'Jane/John Doe', this state of personal consciousness being called 'Identification', from which man must awaken to his true nature. This awakening to true Reality in the present moment is what the Middle Path leads to. It is beyond birth and death, and therefore, beyond Time, Space, and Causation.

It is the realization of the individual wave that it is none other than the entire ocean.

 

[1robin]

Philosophy cannot answer the question. Philisophy in this case is only playing with words. Science can answer, but much is still not perfectly understood. If you have scientific input, please do give it.

You really don't sound like you want an answer to any of your questions.

The existence of the "mind or soul" can't possibly be evaluated by science because it isn't material. Philosophy, theology, and metaphysics are the only academic disciplines that can be used to evaluate the existence of the mind, soul, and / or the spirit.

I am going to give you one more post to show that you have an open mind and are willing to follow the evidence where ever it leads. Philosophy stand in judgment of science but science does not bind philosophy.

 

[Trailblazer]

I hope you get somewhere favourable at least. After my satisafaction at some gardening success, I was brought down to earth by breaking both my ankles in a rather unexplainable incident. Still waiting to find out why this might have happened - and this written from hospital, where I have at last managed to get back on the internet.

These things are sent to try us.

I was wondering what happened to you... I was worried when I did not see you for a while.

I am at least glad to hear you are okay but sorry to hear about your accident... No gardening for me, the extent of my physical exercise consists of walking 2 hours a day and biking 3 hours a day, on my four work days.

Yes, these things are called "tests and difficulties" in Baha'i parlance... Right now my test is this one atheist on that other forum and of course my roof project and other home repairs and tenants...