Does the Soul Exist?

[Trailblazer]

I think that I could not make my meaning clear to you. I will try once more.
You said: "I do not believe that the true nature of reality can be found within. What is found within is subject to error. I rely upon the Messenger of God for truth because He is infallible."
Whether Messenger is true or not can only be judged with what you are already endowed with -- with your own intellect and power of discernment.

You said: But how do you know that which lies outside of you? How do you know the messenger and his message? How do you judge that to be true?
I said: I know because I thoroughly researched the Messenger and what he claimed in order to determine that He was telling the truth. Whether Messenger is true or not can only be judged with what you are already endowed with -- with your own intellect and power of discernment.
What lies inside the human mind is not reliable source of truth because the mind can play tricks on us, since so much lies in the subconscious mind that we are not even aware of.
You said: Whether Messenger is true or not can only be judged with what you are already endowed with -- with your own intellect and power of discernment.

That is exactly it. We are supposed to judge whether the Messenger is true or not by using our own intellect and power of discernment. Baha'u'llah called those "our own innate powers." We ascend to the shores of the Most Great Ocean when we recognize Baha'u'llah as the Messenger of God for this day.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

When I said "What lies inside the human mind is not reliable source of truth because the mind can play tricks on us" the context in which I meant that is that we cannot rely upon what we imagine about God to be true without some external verification. I hope you understand now.

 

[Trailblazer]

If that is the case, then how can ordinary humans, who are without a divine nature, understand the language of the divine itself? Only that which is divine can understand the language of the divine. You say you do not have this nature. How can you know with certainty exactly what the divine messengers are communicating to you without it? You have stated that your belief is essentially certainty, but you still cling to belief. Obviously you think the messengers are on a higher level than the human level. Something has to be awake and attentive in man for him to know what the message is. Without such attention and wakefulness, man is dumb and blind in relation to the divine.

The soul (human spirit) is awakened to the Truth through the mind assisted by the spirit of faith. Anything else such as our own emotions can lead us astray. God gave us a mind to use for reasoning, but unless it is assisted by the spirit of faith, it cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries. We do not need to be divine by nature.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

The way the human spirit (rational soul) is assisted by the spirit of faith is that a ray of this light, a portion and a share of the divine intellectual power comes to us through the Holy Manifestations.

“This divine intellectual power is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and the Dawning-places of prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous, and a portion and a share of this power comes to them through the Holy Manifestations.” Some Answered Questions, p. 218

Do you know anything at all? I don't think so. I think you are still seeing everything via your beliefs, and not via your insight.

My insight comes to me through my soul interpreting the scriptures assisted by the spirit of faith. Revelation is the only want to know anything about God and it only comes through scriptures.

Have you noticed that I don't rely on scripture very much at all, except to occasionally support a point I am making?

And that is why, in my opinion, you have been led astray and you believe there is no self and no soul.

You see. If 'God' wanted to communicate to man, he would not do it from the outside via second-hand scripture so men might mis-interpret the message, because misinterpretation is exactly the case. What he would do is to live intimately inside all of his creation and communicate to man from the inside, not via the written word. There is no comparison.

But I am sorry to say that God does not “live inside” of anyone and communicate with them. That does not even make any sense at all, which is one reason I would never believe it even if I had no religion at all.

It is true that people can and do misinterpret scriptures, but that is still God’s Method of communicating to man. At least now, in this new dispensation, we have “appointed interpreters” of the Writings if Baha’u’llah such that we can understand what He meant, if there is any question. There were no such interpreters of the Bible and that is one reason why Christians went astray from the very beginning. They never understood what the Bible really meant so they held councils and made decisions on doctrines (such as the Jesus being God incarnate) which ended up being false.

One of the problems is that the written word is something that comes from the mind and it is the mind which attempts to make sense of it. But the spirit does not come from the intellect. That is what I have been trying to get across to you. The spirit is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis. The reason you still cling to belief is because you are in the realm of the mind, and not in the spirit. Your intellect is telling you that you have no divine nature, and you believe it. You cannot know the spirit, ie the divine nature, until you let go of the intellect.

No, the spirit does not come from the intellect; it comes from the soul which is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis. My soul was awakened to the Truth through my mind assisted by the spirit of faith, which came to me through the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and helped me discover the divine mysteries. My soul is telling me that I have no divine nature, and I believe it.

It is your intellect which has latched onto religious doctrine and sees it as 'truth'. But as I keep telling you, and as Yeshua pointed out: 'You search the scriptures for eternal life, but it is I whom the scriptures are about'. He also said that the kingdom of God is within, and so these two statement taken together point to the divine nature within each of us.

The kingdom of God is within us does not mean the divine nature within each of us. That is just a meaning you assigned.

“There are three popular interpretations of Jesus’ words in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God is within you (or among you): 1) the kingdom of God is essentially inward, within man’s heart; 2) the kingdom is within your reach if you make the right choices; and 3) the kingdom of God is in your midst in the person and presence of Jesus. The best of these interpretations, it seems, is the third: Jesus was inaugurating the kingdom as He changed the hearts of men, one at a time.”
What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)?

The paragraph was true at the time of writing of Luke 17:21 3) the kingdom of God is in your midst in the person and presence of Jesus. The best of these interpretations, it seems, is the third: Jesus was inaugurating the kingdom as He changed the hearts of men, one at a time.

That is exactly what Jesus did; He changed the hearts of man and prepared humanity for the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth. But the article continues...

“For the time being, Christ’s kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). One day, however, the kingdom of God will be manifest on the earth (Isaiah 35:1), and Jesus Christ will rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7) with Jerusalem as His capital (Zechariah 8:3).”
What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)?

The day has come and gone. Baha’u’llah ushered in the Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus Christ is not coming to rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne because Baha’u’llah is ruling on the throne of David.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

Moreover, Baha’u’llah was the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is a government already set up and it is fully functioning.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jesus said He came not to bring peace but the sword and Jesus is not coming back to rule on earth. Jesus never promised to come back to earth. Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You are right that the kingdom of God is within us, it is in our heart, and that is why Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

In spite of this, Christians still believe that Jesus Christ will rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne.

The Kingdom of God was also to be established on earth in a very real sense but it was not Jesus who would establish it, it was Baha’u’llah, who was the return of Christ as promised by Jesus in John 14, 15, and 16.

This simply demonstrates how misinterpreting scriptures can lead people astray. In fact, it has led the entire religion of Christianity astray. They believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that is living inside of them (indwelt), but the Comforter was Baha’u’llah.

 

[godnotgod]

Ah...but I never said illusion was not problematic. Only that if it is acknowledged, then we have created a dichotomy. Hence the "many in one." The every"thing" in no"thing".

I tend to remember during times of suffering that I am a perceiving being in a complex universe and someday I will die and melt back into it, and my mind will become part of the Absolute again.

I just acknowledge that this World of Perception, whether I label it reality or illusion (would that even matter?) exists.

Does it really? When you dream, you think the dream-world 'exists', until you awaken and realize its illusory nature. Because of the perceptual world, man thinks this means 'reality'. But some say that this world of perception is also a dream, only one of a higher caliber than that of the sleep-dream world.

When have you ever been separated from The Absolute? Separation means that you are relative to The Absolute, making The Absolute also a relative condition. That cannot be the case, since The Absolute is Everything that is, including you. There is no relative 'other' to which The Absolute can be compared. The notion of 'separation' is only an illusion of the mind.

Because the illusion is unreal, the only true Reality is The Absolute, so any 'dichotomy' is only a seeming one that only exists in the mind.

Whether this 'material' world is real or not does matter, because if it is in fact an illusion, then you would want to know what is creating that illusion to get to what is the true Reality.

In the meantime, who is it that suffers? Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies? If there is no self that exists, that is, if the self in an illusion; a fiction, then what is the true nature of Reality?

 

[godnotgod]

The soul (human spirit) is awakened to the Truth through the mind assisted by the spirit of faith. Anything else such as our own emotions can lead us astray. God gave us a mind to use for reasoning, but unless it is assisted by the spirit of faith, it cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries. We do not need to be divine by nature.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

The way the human spirit (rational soul) is assisted by the spirit of faith is that a ray of this light, a portion and a share of the divine intellectual power comes to us through the Holy Manifestations.

“This divine intellectual power is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and the Dawning-places of prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous, and a portion and a share of this power comes to them through the Holy Manifestations.” Some Answered Questions, p. 218

My insight comes to me through my soul interpreting the scriptures assisted by the spirit of faith. Revelation is the only want to know anything about God and it only comes through scriptures.

And that is why, in my opinion, you have been led astray and you believe there is no self and no soul.

But I am sorry to say that God does not “live inside” of anyone and communicate with them. That does not even make any sense at all, which is one reason I would never believe it even if I had no religion at all.

It is true that people can and do misinterpret scriptures, but that is still God’s Method of communicating to man. At least now, in this new dispensation, we have “appointed interpreters” of the Writings if Baha’u’llah such that we can understand what He meant, if there is any question. There were no such interpreters of the Bible and that is one reason why Christians went astray from the very beginning. They never understood what the Bible really meant so they held councils and made decisions on doctrines (such as the Jesus being God incarnate) which ended up being false.

No, the spirit does not come from the intellect; it comes from the soul which is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis. My soul was awakened to the Truth through my mind assisted by the spirit of faith, which came to me through the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and helped me discover the divine mysteries. My soul is telling me that I have no divine nature, and I believe it.

The kingdom of God is within us does not mean the divine nature within each of us. That is just a meaning you assigned.

“There are three popular interpretations of Jesus’ words in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God is within you (or among you): 1) the kingdom of God is essentially inward, within man’s heart; 2) the kingdom is within your reach if you make the right choices; and 3) the kingdom of God is in your midst in the person and presence of Jesus. The best of these interpretations, it seems, is the third: Jesus was inaugurating the kingdom as He changed the hearts of men, one at a time.”
What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)?

The paragraph was true at the time of writing of Luke 17:21 3) the kingdom of God is in your midst in the person and presence of Jesus. The best of these interpretations, it seems, is the third: Jesus was inaugurating the kingdom as He changed the hearts of men, one at a time.

That is exactly what Jesus did; He changed the hearts of man and prepared humanity for the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth. But the article continues...

“For the time being, Christ’s kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). One day, however, the kingdom of God will be manifest on the earth (Isaiah 35:1), and Jesus Christ will rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7) with Jerusalem as His capital (Zechariah 8:3).”
What did Jesus mean when He said, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)?

The day has come and gone. Baha’u’llah ushered in the Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus Christ is not coming to rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne because Baha’u’llah is ruling on the throne of David.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

Moreover, Baha’u’llah was the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is a government already set up and it is fully functioning.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jesus said He came not to bring peace but the sword and Jesus is not coming back to rule on earth. Jesus never promised to come back to earth. Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You are right that the kingdom of God is within us, it is in our heart, and that is why Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

In spite of this, Christians still believe that Jesus Christ will rule a physical kingdom from David’s throne.

The Kingdom of God was also to be established on earth in a very real sense but it was not Jesus who would establish it, it was Baha’u’llah, who was the return of Christ as promised by Jesus in John 14, 15, and 16.

This simply demonstrates how misinterpreting scriptures can lead people astray. In fact, it has led the entire religion of Christianity astray. They believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that is living inside of them (indwelt), but the Comforter was Baha’u’llah.

Sorry, but I think you're full of beliefs and doctrines and have turned the spiritual experience into something far too complicated to be real. WAY too much baggage which, in the end, only leads to belief. Where do you get off? The basic problem with your argument is that you believe in a supernatural power over and above nature, while I see them as one and the same via an indwelling divine nature that is omniscient.

I did not say there is no soul; I said that the notion of an individual soul is an illusion of the mind. The mind is a self-created principle, and as such, is flawed by default. That is why mystics throughout the centuries, when understanding this, transcend the mind and the self and become at one with pure consciousness. Reliance on scripture only confuses the mind. No one needs it since the source that it is based upon lies within. The reason you don't see it is because you don't understand that it is Nothing Special. You're making a Big Deal out of something very simple and easy to understand.

 

[godnotgod]

This simply demonstrates how misinterpreting scriptures can lead people astray. In fact, it has led the entire religion of Christianity astray. They believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit that is living inside of them (indwelt), but the Comforter was Baha’u’llah.

You failed to understand the meaning of 'little children' in the Jesus quote I presented. You did not understand this simple scripture which pointed to the natural mind of the child, thinking it had something to do with being 'grown up'. That is because you are still indoctrinated and are not seeing things correctly. You're full of the doctrine of this and that, and still have not yet arrived, as you continue to cling to beliefs instead of reality, and think that what you seek lies outside of yourself. As long as you do, you will never arrive. You will always be the seeker on the path, filled with belief and doctrine about Reality, but never at one with Reality itself.

The answers you seek are not in any particular messenger, but what the messenger is about, and all messengers are about the same Reality. You are eating the menu instead of the meal.

 

[godnotgod]

It is true that people can and do misinterpret scriptures, but that is still God’s Method of communicating to man.

Nah. It's not via the scripture....it's via the Silence. Scripture from all sources only leads man astray. But when we listen to the Silence we begin to awaken spiritually. We don't need a new dispensation or any abrogation. The original Silence is just fine, and has been with us since Day One. All you have to do is to get yourself out of the way and listen, putting scripture and doctrine aside.

 

[godnotgod]

My mind is not flawed. I do not believe in religious doctrines, doctrines are man-made. I believe in the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, and those were revealed to Him by God through the Holy Spirit.

IOW, 'religious doctrine', LOL.

How do think you can go beyond the mind and tap into the Source of Perfect Understanding?

Really, it's just a figure of speech. You can't go beyond something that doesn't exist to begin with. What it is, is that you are already That, ie the 'Source of Perfect Understanding', pretending that you're not That. It's part of the cosmic game of Hide and Seek which the divine nature plays with itself. But the idea that The Universe itself is nothing but a play and illusion of the divine nature is much too much for you to deal with at the moment. Sorry.

 

[godnotgod]

Seems no one has brought up the idea of 'the soul' as being The Universe coming together in a single point in Time and Space. The Australian Abrogine and the American Indian both had the idea that who you are includes your immediate environment as it was at the moment of your birth. And so, you might be named 'Laughing Waters', or 'Running Deer'. This idea denotes a Universe that is alive and conscious, resulting in a child that is alive and conscious. In this sense, you are the Universe itself. Your soul is the soul of the Universe.

I think ancient man had an understanding of this idea, but it has been lost due to both science and religious dogma, which are largely responsible for eviscerating man of a rich inheritance.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The brain makes every aspect of you you. People stuck in uninformed cults and systems of thought erroneously think and argue that an invisible soul makes you who you are.

Um... I think that's bs, may I politely say that? Put my brain in a horse and that horse will not be me.

 

[TruePathFinder]

Um... I think that's bs, may I politely say that? Put my brain in a horse and that horse will not be me.

You will be strange and intelligent horse

 

[Gohelwan alien Vega 17b]

Good topic. My opinion is that there is a Soul. My opinion is that there are four parts that make up a living entity. These would be the brain, mind, soul, and The Self. Brain is the lowest material level, Mind is electro-chemical energy level, Soul is subtle energy level, and The Self is Supra-energy/Transcendent level. People equate thinking or mind with the Soul which I think is not helpful entirely. I feel mind is different than consciousness. Mind is just thought groupings. Soul would maybe be like what enables emotions or insight break-thru's when connected with those thought groupings. There are some mysteries left concerning the mind. One is, where is the information stored in the brain that enables recall of a specific memory over any other at any time? Science does not have an answer. Another is why I get emotional? It isn't that I get happy or sad because I eat a happy or sad orange. People think sometimes that a soul is trapped in the physical entity but I don't hold that view. The Soul houses or has with in it all entities in my opinion. I feel the brain is just a tool occurring at one level of existence. The brain limits consciousness by tuning it. The brain is like a radio receiver. It just channels a certain station of many in existence. Brain is limited, Mind is less limited, Subtle level existence is hardly limited much, and the Transcendent Self is unlimited or unhindered in any way.

 

[TruePathFinder]

Good topic. My opinion is that there is a Soul. My opinion is that there are four parts that make up a living entity. These would be the brain, mind, soul, and The Self. Brain is the lowest material level, Mind is electro-chemical energy level, Soul is subtle energy level, and The Self is Supra-energy/Transcendent level. People equate thinking or mind with the Soul which I think is not helpful entirely. I feel mind is different than consciousness. Mind is just thought groupings. Soul would maybe be like what enables emotions or insight break-thru's when connected with those thought groupings. There are some mysteries left concerning the mind. One is, where is the information stored in the brain that enables recall of a specific memory over any other at any time? Science does not have an answer. Another is why I get emotional? It isn't that I get happy or sad because I eat a happy or sad orange. People think sometimes that a soul is trapped in the physical entity but I don't hold that view. The Soul houses or has with in it all entities in my opinion. I feel the brain is just a tool occurring at one level of existence. The brain limits consciousness by tuning it. The brain is like a radio receiver. It just channels a certain station of many in existence. Brain is limited, Mind is less limited, Subtle level existence is hardly limited much, and the Transcendent Self is unlimited or unhindered in any way.

Where do you get this information?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

One is awakened consciousness; the other is not.

Is the sleep-dream level of consciousness the same as the awakened state?

It all looks like awakened consciousness to me.

 

[godnotgod]

It all looks like awakened consciousness to me.

When you are asleep and dreaming, you are not aware that you are dreaming. That occurs only upon awakening. So how are they the same?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

When you are asleep and dreaming, you are not aware that you are dreaming. That occurs only upon awakening. So how are they the same?

Meditation is the same as other brain function while awake.

 

[godnotgod]

Meditation is the same as other brain function while awake.

No, it is not.

Sleep with dreams is not the same as the awakened state.

Your life in this 'reality' seems real, but a further awakening reveals it to be a dream.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

No, it is not.

Based on what evidence?

Sleep with dreams is not the same as the awakened state.

I am talking about the meditative state.

Your life in this 'reality' seems real, but a further awakening reveals it to be a dream.

Evidence?

 

[Looncall]

The soul to me is the heart, mind, and will of a unified single living being. Whatever the form or cause of it, physical or not, it is real.

As far as I can tell, these days the notion of a soul is just a ruse used by rascally clergy to fool the gullible. Originally I suppose it was a garden-variety category error, like asking where fire goes when fuel runs out.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You will be strange and intelligent horse

But not me.

And you left out wonderful.

 

[godnotgod]

Based on what evidence?

For one thing, during meditation, the brain outputs large amounts of Alpha waves, not the case during normal waking hours. Mediators actually grow thicker cortexes than non-meditators. And mediation rewires the neural network. Google 'how meditation affects the brain' for a good number of other effects meditation has on the brain.

I am talking about the meditative state.

Right. It, like the difference between sleep with dreams and the waking state, is a shift in consciousness away from ordinary waking consciousness. The ultimate shift is that of the enlightened state, a radical transformation of consciousness.

Evidence?

If you were asleep and dreaming, and I suggested to you that there is a higher state of consciousness beyond your dream state, you would not know about wakefulness; your dream is reality for you, and you would think yourself already awake. When you awaken, however, it is immediately apparent to you that your dream was illusory. So waking up is the evidence from one level of consciousness to the next. Likewise, a further awakening from your so-called 'waking state' will reveal to you it's illusory nature.