Does the Soul Exist?

[godnotgod]

Thought is why God created us with a brain. Insight or intuition is a part of the thought process, but it can be wrong. The logical reason why it can be wrong is that different people have different insights whereas there is only one reality. So who has the correct insight? How can you say that your insight is right and others are wrong?

I see that you are still attached to duality; to 'right and wrong', which is why you fail to understand.

I have pointed over and over to a universal, not a personal view, of reality, but you cannot help to cling to personal views.

I am not referring to personal insight. I am referring to insight devoid of personality and ego. That is, quite simply, to see things as they are. But you are still thinking 'my view' vs 'your view'. People who see things as they are see the same reality as others who also see things as they are.

You are making up things when you say that 'Thought is why God created us with a brain'. Thought is why we have different views of reality, and why the world is in turmoil.

No, insight is not part of the thought process; it is seeing,not thinking, about what is.

With all due respect, you are the pot calling the kettle black because it is your ego that is attached to what you believe that you call insight.

Sorry. Insight has no doctrine or belief attached to it. Belief and doctrine are products of thought. Again, insight is simply to see things as they are.

By contrast, what I believe comes from outside of me; I put my trust in something higher than myself, a Messenger of God. If God sent a Messenger to earth to convey information that is reality. That means anything that is incongruent with that reality is falsehood. I don’t know how much more clearly I can state this.

You make little sense. If you are getting the message about what reality is, why do you persist with your beliefs about reality? Apparently, your mind is not as clear as you think. Again, you persist with immersing your mind in the dual world with 'true' and 'false'.

If I relied upon my own insight I would come to the same conclusions as my religious beliefs, that we have an individual soul that persists after death. Even NDE studies corroborate that we retain our individuality, that we do not become one big soul mass. This is logical, because we have individuality in this world so there is no reason why we would lose that after we die. And what are we going to actually “do” all merged as a mass?

Is that what I said? No. But since you mention it, the reason you entertain such nonsense is because your ego won't have it; It wants to go on in perpetuity as an individual self, and will fight you tooth and nail to get what it wants, even making you believe in an individual soul that goes on ad nauseum. Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that you are only a temporary character in this earthly drama, and when the act is over, so is the character's role. Get out of the way to make room for other acts coming up. Look. You don't know anything. All you really know is that you are here, now. Happiness does not lie in some unknown future time and place; it can only occur in this eternal present moment, and in no other moment, because the past is dead, and the future is non-existent. Anything other than you being here now is just belief and conjecture to assuage your metaphysical anxiety about your fate. You're just making up stories to please your ego.

There is no 'one big soul mass'; that's just your fearful ego talking.

Now we are talking about something else. If we do not have a spiritual experience through the soul, how do we experience it?

Directly. What you are calling 'a soul' is the experience itself which you are transforming into an agent of the experience; an 'experiencer of the experience'. There is no such agent; there is only the experience itself, and you are that experience. But because you still dwell in the dual world, you continue to think 'this and that'; 'self and other'; 'experience and experiencer'. It's just an illusion of the mind.

No, that is not what I am doing. There would be no way for me to know what the soul is without the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the interpretations of those made by His appointed interpreters. I could imagine any number of things.

IOW, you rely on religious doctrine to tell you what reality is, rather than experiencing it first-hand. Belief is not reality. You don't actually know what 'the soul' is because it is an object of the mind; a belief ABOUT reality, but not the direct experience of reality itself. Why not put a stop to your imagination and mind-wandering so that you can SEE things as they are, instead of putting stock in this belief and that belief?

What you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a self, and this goes against not only religion but also against science andpsychology. It also makes no sense so it goes against logic. If we have no self then we have no mind of our own, no identity and no free will.

Then you will be free of such trappings, and your true nature will come into play.

Here. Take the time to read the following excerpt from an interview of Sam Harris, noting especially the image which appears to contain a square. (No, this is not about being an atheist).


G.G.: You deny the existence of the self, understood as “an inner subject thinking our thoughts and experiencing our experiences.” You say, further, that the experience of meditation (as practiced, for example, in Buddhism) shows that there is no self. But you also admit that we all “feel like an internal self at almost every waking moment.” Why should a relatively rare — and deliberately cultivated — experience of no-self trump this almost constant feeling of a self?

S.H.: Because what does not survive scrutiny cannot be real. Perhaps you can see the same effect in this perceptual illusion:

It certainly looks like there is a white square in the center of this figure, but when we study the image, it becomes clear that there are only four partial circles. The square has been imposed by our visual system, whose edge detectors have been fooled. Can we know that the black shapes are more real than the white one? Yes, because the square doesn’t survive our efforts to locate it — its edges literally disappear. A little investigation and we see that its form has been merely implied.

What could we say to a skeptic who insisted that the white square is just as real as the three-quarter circles and that its disappearance is nothing more than, as you say, “a relatively rare — and deliberately cultivated — experience”? All we could do is urge him to look more closely.

The same is true about the conventional sense of self — the feeling of being a subject inside your head, a locus of consciousness behind your eyes, a thinker in addition to the flow of thoughts. This form of subjectivity does not survive scrutiny. If you really look for what you are calling “I,” this feeling will disappear. In fact, it is easier to experience consciousness without the feeling of self than it is to banish the white square in the above image.

Sam Harris's Vanishing Self

Now if you really understand what Sam Harris is saying here, the question you should ask yourself is: If there is no self, then who, or what, is it that is having this experience? You will find, perhaps not right away, and sometimes it takes years with some people, that there is a conscious presence at all times, but that presence is not your personal identity called 'self' or 'soul' or 'me' or 'I'. That presence is what you are calling 'God', and what I am calling 'Universal Consciousness'.

Take your time. Be honest. Don't think, just see, what is.

 

[godnotgod]

By contrast, what I believe comes from outside of me....

Yeshua told us that 'the Kingdom of God is within'.

He also said that: 'Unless you turn, and become as little children, you shall not enter into Paradise'. To become as little children is to see things as they are, without judging. Judging, or moral right and wrong, is taught to us via our social indoctrination. Turning away from the outside world of society's hypocricy and inward to the 'Kingdom of God' is to enter into Paradise. Turning inward is not to rely upon belief in some outside religious doctrine or scripture, which is always second-hand to the direct and authentic spiritual experience that lies within. But first, you must get past the obstacles of self and ego and other accretions. IOW, you must subdue the conceptual mind with all its ideas about Reality, and see directly into your true nature, which is divine. This is called 'divine union'.

"Yoga (ie divine union), is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
Patanjali, The Yoga Sutras

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The brain ultimately produces reality from stimulus filtered through the processes of the body and its interaction with the rest of the universe (essentially with the only separation being our own perception of it).

In more poetic terms, we are all unique patterns within an incomprehensibly complex and vast universe.

If nothing else, there's our soul.

 

[Earthling]

The brain ultimately produces reality from stimulus filtered through the processes of the body and its interaction with the rest of the universe (essentially with the only separation being our own perception of it).

In more poetic terms, we are all unique patterns within an incomprehensibly complex and vast universe.

If nothing else, there's our soul.

It's always been interesting to me that a concept like the soul can be so varied. In the Bible it's the life, the blood, in religion and superstition it's some part of us that goes on forever - that comes from Plato and Socrates. To some it's energy, interchangeable or indistinguishable from the universe. It's some concept of old that can be whatever you imagine it to be, sort of like heaven is always what the imagination cares to devise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeshua told us that 'the Kingdom of God is within'.

He also said that: 'Unless you turn, and become as little children, you shall not enter into Paradise'. To become as little children is to see things as they are, without judging. Judging, or moral right and wrong, is taught to us via our social indoctrination. Turning away from the outside world of society's hypocricy and inward to the 'Kingdom of God' is to enter into Paradise. Turning inward is not to rely upon belief in some outside religious doctrine or scripture, which is always second-hand to the direct and authentic spiritual experience that lies within. But first, you must get past the obstacles of self and ego and other accretions. IOW, you must subdue the conceptual mind with all its ideas about Reality, and see directly into your true nature, which is divine. This is called 'divine union'.

"Yoga (ie divine union), is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
Patanjali, The Yoga Sutras

We are no longer living in the dispensation of Jesus. It has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. We can no longer act as little children. We are all grown up now so we have to use our higher rational faculty to think and find truth for ourselves.

Truth comes from God through His Messengers, not from inside of us, because God is not inside of us. We are not one with God, God is forever separate from His Creation, above everything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

Turning inward for Truth is to rely upon your own self and ego, often misconstruing that as reality.

Humans do not have a divine nature. Only Messengers of God have a divine nature.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It's always been interesting to me that a concept like the soul can be so varied. In the Bible it's the life, the blood, in religion and superstition it's some part of us that goes on forever - that comes from Plato and Socrates. To some it's energy, interchangeable or indistinguishable from the universe. It's some concept of old that can be whatever you imagine it to be, sort of like heaven is always what the imagination cares to devise.

Makes sense given that we spend our lives developing a sense of self, but our concepts of reality are all different given the environments we develop in.

 

[godnotgod]

The brain ultimately produces reality from stimulus filtered through the processes of the body and its interaction with the rest of the universe (essentially with the only separation being our own perception of it).

In more poetic terms, we are all unique patterns within an incomprehensibly complex and vast universe.

If nothing else, there's our soul.

Most people think of The Universe as a vessel that contains all things, but that is not the case. Nothing is separate from The Universe. The idea of a Universe separate from our perception of it is just a subject/object split created by the thinking mind. The Universe is, in fact, all of those very things, including space, which altogether, comprise The Universe. So we are not 'unique patterns within' the universe; we ARE none other than The Universe itself, playing itself as those 'unique patterns'. Perception too is not something 'apart' from The Universe; that perception is the perception of The Universe itself, even though it may see things through the filter of a mind conditioned via our social indoctrination and life experiences.

The notion of an individual 'soul' is one of those concepts created by the conditioned mind.

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

 

[godnotgod]

Makes sense given that we spend our lives developing a sense of self, but our concepts of reality are all different given the environments we develop in.

But there exists a kind of consciousness that lies underneath our differing personal views of reality, being one which allows us to see the same Reality. Most of us are not aware of this universal view because it is not part of our mental conditioning as a separate self, which becomes the dominant view. However, child psychologists tell us that a sense of self does not develop until around 14 months. IOW, self-view of reality is not the view of our original conscious state.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I've been reading a bit about the brain and it seems that science is showing more and more that the physical brain is responsible for all thoughts, actions and processes. Even our personality is determined in parts of the physical brain. If the brain does everything, then what is the use of a soul? Since it has no function it is safe to say it does not exist. The brain stops working, you die. You don't miraculously enter an afterlife.
What is your opinion?

Um...Maybe I'm dense but what do the soul and the brain have in common?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Most people think of The Universe as a vessel that contains all things, but that is not the case. Nothing is separate from The Universe. The idea of a Universe separate from our perception of it is just a subject/object split created by the thinking mind. The Universe is, in fact, all of those very things, including space, which altogether, comprise The Universe. So we are not 'unique patterns within' the universe; we ARE none other than The Universe itself, playing itself as those 'unique patterns'. Perception too is not something 'apart' from The Universe; that perception is the perception of The Universe itself, even though it may see things through the filter of a mind conditioned via our social indoctrination and life experiences.

The notion of an individual 'soul' is one of those concepts created by the conditioned mind.

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

I agree, in a sense. We are both separate and not separate. We are the universe creating itself.

"Soul" is one of the many words we use to attempt to point to this relationship of being a perceiving being in this Absolute.

 

[godnotgod]

We are no longer living in the dispensation of Jesus. It has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. We can no longer act as little children. We are all grown up now so we have to use our higher rational faculty to think and find truth for ourselves.

Truth comes from God through His Messengers, not from inside of us, because God is not inside of us. We are not one with God, God is forever separate from His Creation, above everything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

Turning inward for Truth is to rely upon your own self and ego, often misconstruing that as reality.

Humans do not have a divine nature. Only Messengers of God have a divine nature.

Your comments reveal a mind that has been bamboozled and misunderstands the meaning of what I've said.

Spiritual truths do not change with the weather. They are not true one day, and false the next. That is science. You will know them as authentic via your own inner experience, and no, I am not, as I have pointed out, and which you continue to ignore, talking about our personal view, which is the result of our social indoctrination, but of one that comes directly from The Source itself, and that Source is within. It is true that many of the things you find in the scriptures are concocted and unauthentic, or even the result of clever overwritings.

So who, or what, will abrogate the Revelation of Baha’u’llah?

But to get to the specific point, which you have missed: Jesus, or rather Yeshua, was not talking about children in the sense of not being 'grown up'. Had you paid attention to what I actually said, you would have realized I was not talking about children as socialized human beings, ie 'grown up', but about them in their natural state, which is what Yeshua was referring to.

You still fail to understand: as 'grown up' people trying to use Reason to find 'truth' will lead you astray. Why? Because a grown up is the product of social indoctrination which has created a hardened and conditioned view of reality. A true view of Reality can only be realized when the mind is in an unconditioned, ie 'free', state, because it is the unconditioned mind which sees things as they actually are, and not as the conditioned mind of belief, concept, notion, conjecture, idea, or all other thought patterns tells you they are.

Turning inward for insight into the true nature of reality is to dissolve the illusory notions of ego, self, and soul, and to get to the divine Source within, but you have to go deeper than ego, self, and individual soul to realize union with the divine nature within. Because the divine nature is not in your intellect or your mind, it cannot be the product of erroneous thinking, as you claim. Apparently, you are still on a superficial level of inner exploration, and are still relying on external 'authority' for your 'truth'.

Please show me exactly at which point the separation exists between you and God.

If you do not have a divine nature, does that mean that you are merely an artifact, a 'thing', that is subject to creation and destruction by the hand of God? And if you have no divine nature, what is all this talk about 'a soul'?

I can tell you one thing, and that is I have a divine nature not separate from Universal Consciousness. I can burn every single scripture on the planet, including yours, and still realize the universal divine nature within.

If the teachings of Baha’u’llah say that you have no divine nature, and only it's messengers do, then you are being manipulated and lied to, just as the corrupt priests of old lied to their congregations in order to control them with fear and extract tribute from them for their 'services', and just as modern 'prosperity' televangelists draw huge crowds by lying to them with promises of wealth and Paradise beyond the grave.

 

[Earthling]

Makes sense given that we spend our lives developing a sense of self, but our concepts of reality are all different given the environments we develop in.

To me, that's spirituality. I don't think of spirituality as being exclusively to do with the celestial, or supernatural, but more of the mundane. Environment, culture, tradition.

 

[godnotgod]

I agree, in a sense. We are both separate and not separate. We are the universe creating itself.

I don't even see 'creation' but instead the illusion of creation. But where is this 'separate but not separate' condition? If something is not only AN absolute, but THE Absolute, then there can be no separate relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

"Soul" is one of the many words we use to attempt to point to this relationship of being a perceiving being in this Absolute.

Yes, but it is in error, a condition born of the conditioned mind which creates a subject/object split view of reality, where no such split is actually the case, the concept of 'perceiver and perceived' only existing in the mind and nowhere else.

 

[godnotgod]

To me, that's spirituality. I don't think of spirituality as being exclusively to do with the celestial, or supernatural, but more of the mundane. Environment, culture, tradition.

Excellent! Zen is one of the few, if only, teachings which tells us just that: The Ordinary and The Miraculous are one and the same experience.

"The spirituality found in Zen is not to think about God while peeling the potatoes, but simply to peel the potatoes."
Alan Watts

 

[Earthling]

Excellent! Zen is one of the few, if only, teachings which tells us just that: The Ordinary and The Miraculous are one and the same experience.

"The spirituality found in Zen is not to think about God while peeling the potatoes, but simply to peel the potatoes."
Alan Watts

I like that. I really like the practicality of Ajahn Sumedho's discourse on the Four Noble Truths. I used to have it on my websites, and hopefully will get it up on my new one. There used to be all sorts of HTML versions free online, but now they do everything in PDF. Blech.

Four Noble Truths

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I don't even see 'creation' but instead the illusion of creation. But where is this 'separate but not separate' condition? If something is not only AN absolute, but THE Absolute, then there can be no separate relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

What is "illusion" if all things are of the Absolute? If what I experience is illusion, there is a dichotomy.

There is both: dichotomy and Absolute. Self, and not-self. One and Many.

Though, we are both saying the same thing, essentially. Beyond our words, all simply is.

Yes, but it is in error, a condition born of the conditioned mind which creates a subject/object split view of reality, where no such split is actually the case, the concept of 'perceiver and perceived' only existing in the mind and nowhere else.

Again, where there is error, there is a dichotomy. What exists in the mind is as much a part of the illusion and reality of the Universe as anything is (and nothing is, for that matter).

 

[atanu]

It's always been interesting to me that a concept like the soul can be so varied. In the Bible it's the life, the blood, in religion and superstition it's some part of us that goes on forever - that comes from Plato and Socrates. To some it's energy, interchangeable or indistinguishable from the universe. It's some concept of old that can be whatever you imagine it to be, sort of like heaven is always what the imagination cares to devise.

Okay. Soul is the living being. What is its essence? Or is it that there is none?

 

[Trailblazer]

Your comments reveal a mind that has been bamboozled and misunderstands the meaning of what I've said.

Spiritual truths do not change with the weather. They are not true one day, and false the next. That is science.

I agree with that.

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists......

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

You will know them as authentic via your own inner experience, and no, I am not, as I have pointed out, and which you continue to ignore, talking about our personal view, which is the result of our social indoctrination,

I agree that we will know the spiritual virtues such as faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy by our own inner experience.

... but of one that comes directly from The Source itself, and that Source is within. It is true that many of the things you find in the scriptures are concocted and unauthentic, or even the result of clever overwritings.

This is where I diverge from your views. I do not believe that the Source (God) is within anyone.

However, if you are referring to the Bible, I agree that many of the things you find in the scriptures are concocted and unauthentic, or even the result of clever overwritings. Such is not the case with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, because they are authentic, written in His Own pen. Unlike with the Bible, we have the original writings of the Messenger of God.

So who, or what, will abrogate the Revelation of Baha’u’llah?

The next Messenger that is sent by God to earth will abrogate it.

But to get to the specific point, which you have missed: Jesus, or rather Yeshua, was not talking about children in the sense of not being 'grown up'. Had you paid attention to what I actually said, you would have realized I was not talking about children as socialized human beings, ie 'grown up', but about them in their natural state, which is what Yeshua was referring to.

Of course I knew that is not what Jesus or what you meant but I was going off on a tangent to make another point. What I meant is that humanity has matured spiritually since the days of Jesus so in that sense they have grown up to being adults, figuratively speaking. Because humanity as a whole has matured, they were ready for a more comprehensive and advanced revelation from God. Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth who brought that revelation.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You still fail to understand: as 'grown up' people trying to use Reason to find 'truth' will lead you astray. Why? Because a grown up is the product of social indoctrination which has created a hardened and conditioned view of reality. A true view of Reality can only be realized when the mind is in an unconditioned, ie 'free', state, because it is the unconditioned mind which sees things as they actually are, and not as the conditioned mind of belief, concept, notion, conjecture, idea, or all other thought patterns tells you they are.

The best way to discover Truth is through the mind assisted by the spirit of faith. Anything else such as emotion can lead us astray. God gave us a mind to use for reasoning, but unless it is assisted by the spirit of faith, cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries.

“The human spirit, which distinguishes man from the animal, is the rational soul, and these two terms—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one and the same thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is called the rational soul, encompasses all things and as far as human capacity permits, discovers their realities and becomes aware of the properties and effects, the characteristics and conditions of earthly things. But the human spirit, unless it be assisted by the spirit of faith, cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, bright, and polished, is still in need of light. Not until a sunbeam falls upon it can it discover the divine mysteries.

As for the mind, it is the power of the human spirit. The spirit is as the lamp, and the mind as the light that shines from it. The spirit is as the tree, and the mind as the fruit. The mind is the perfection of the spirit and a necessary attribute thereof, even as the rays of the sun are an essential requirement of the sun itself.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 4-5

Turning inward for insight into the true nature of reality is to dissolve the illusory notions of ego, self, and soul, and to get to the divine Source within, but you have to go deeper than ego, self, and individual soul to realize union with the divine nature within. Because the divine nature is not in your intellect or your mind, it cannot be the product of erroneous thinking, as you claim. Apparently, you are still on a superficial level of inner exploration, and are still relying on external 'authority' for your 'truth'.

I do not believe that the true nature of reality can be found within. What is found within is subject to error. I rely upon the Messenger of God for truth because He is infallible.

Please show me exactly at which point the separation exists between you and God.

God is separate from His Creation but we can still be connected with God in our hearts. That is the spiritual experience people describe.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

If you do not have a divine nature, does that mean that you are merely an artifact, a 'thing', that is subject to creation and destruction by the hand of God? And if you have no divine nature, what is all this talk about 'a soul'?

We all have a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature, but that is not the same thing as having a divine nature. We can reflect the attributes of God but we do not have the same “nature” as God.

The soul which is who we are is not subject to destruction. It is like a mirror that can turn towards God or away from God, with the following results:

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

I can tell you one thing, and that is I have a divine nature not separate from Universal Consciousness. I can burn every single scripture on the planet, including yours, and still realize the universal divine nature within.

You can believe that if you want to but don’t expect other people to believe it. People have all kinds of “spiritual experiences.” There is no way to confirm that any of them are reality from any God.

If the teachings of Baha’u’llah say that you have no divine nature, and only it's messengers do, then you are being manipulated and lied to, just as the corrupt priests of old lied to their congregations in order to control them with fear and extract tribute from them for their 'services', and just as modern 'prosperity' televangelists draw huge crowds by lying to them with promises of wealth and Paradise beyond the grave.

The third station, the divine appearance, is what differentiates Manifestations of God such as Jesus or Baha’u’llah from all other humans:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor... it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152

 

[atanu]

I do not believe that the true nature of reality can be found within. What is found within is subject to error. I rely upon the Messenger of God for truth because He is infallible.

But how do you know that which lies outside of you? How do you know the messenger and his message? How do you judge that to be true?

 

[Trailblazer]

But how do you know that which lies outside of you? How do you know the messenger and his message? How do you judge that to be true?

I know because I thoroughly researched the Messenger and what he claimed in order to determine that He was telling the truth.

What lies inside the human mind is not reliable source of truth because the mind can play tricks on us, since so much lies in the subconscious mind that we are not even aware of.

 

[godnotgod]

What is "illusion" if all things are of the Absolute? If what I experience is illusion, there is a dichotomy.

There is both: dichotomy and Absolute. Self, and not-self. One and Many.

Though, we are both saying the same thing, essentially. Beyond our words, all simply is.



Again, where there is error, there is a dichotomy. What exists in the mind is as much a part of the illusion and reality of the Universe as anything is (and nothing is, for that matter).

Just because illusion is of The Absolute does not mean it is not problematical. The problem is to experience illusion and think it to be reality, and then to act upon it or base your ideas about how you relate to reality upon it.

If suffering does not matter to you, then the error in the mind is of no importance. But for most of us, the resultant suffering does matter, and many throughout history have tried to find a way out of it. Unfortunately, the illusion has a powerful grasp upon the mind, and it is no small matter to be free of it. This apples to the great majority of mankind, which does not understand the nature of their suffering. It took many years of sometimes intense suffering for the Buddha to finally come to grips with the issue and overcome it.

Essentially, the illusion and its pursuit by men take three forms: Power, Sensation, and Security. These three Addictions are what most of mankind is in pursuit of, in various combinations, and which have been the causes of great misery throughout history. All are driven by Desire. But when Love comes into play, these three Addictions are transformed into Preferences. Love provides the necessary insight into the nature of these three Addictions so they are no longer a cause of suffering. An enlightened mind knows how to deal with them, instead of being yanked along by them. That is the difference.