Does the Soul Exist?

[outlawState]

Since it has no function it is safe to say it does not exist. The brain stops working, you die. You don't miraculously enter an afterlife.
What is your opinion?

The existence of ghosts would seem to contradict your "scientific hypothesis."

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The fact that most of humanity is not in a higher state of consciousness. If it were, we would not be experiencing the world in its current condition, which is due to conditioned awareness.

First, you need to show that there is a higher state of consciousness.

Some individuals become enlightened without ever having undergone any kind of training or meditation process. In these individuals, there is no known mechanism which triggered their higher state of consciousness. In Zen, for example, the koan is the mechanism in at least one school. In another, it is 'just sitting', etc.

Again, what higher state of consciousness?

The brain is not deciding to do this, otherwise it would, as I said, be the norm.

Why? You seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions.

Higher Consciousness is not about conceptualizing what reality is via thought; it is the direct seeing into the true nature of Reality as it actually is.

Based on what evidence?

"First there is a mountain;

then there is no mountain;
then there is"

That sounds like nonsense to me.

Within the conditioned activity of the brain, there is change and learning due to plasticity, but these changes are not the kind of change I am referring to. Understand we are talking about a radical transformation of consciousness here beyond that of anything the ordinary mind can even remotely imagine. It is the change from conditioned awareness which sees things as the mind thinks they are, to one of unconditioned awareness which sees things as they actually are.

So why can't the brain be the cause?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The existence of ghosts would seem to contradict your "scientific hypothesis."

Pareidolia doesn't contradict any scientific hypotheses.

Pareidolia - Wikipedia

 

[outlawState]

Try this

 

[TruePathFinder]

Try this

You're kidding right?

 

[outlawState]

You're kidding right?

There are loads of this type of video. And thousands of ghost photos. I have a book
"GHOSTS OF KNIGHTON GORGES" (Knighton Gorges is one the UK's most haunted places) which is packed full of relations of supernatural phenomena by many different people in the environs of this demolished house.

If you don't even believe in ghosts you aren't no scientist.

 

[godnotgod]

First, you need to show that there is a higher state of consciousness.

Again, what higher state of consciousness?

The word 'Enlightenment' is the term most associated with the fruits of Higher Consciousness. But since it is the direct experience of Reality, it cannot be defined in rational terms, nor can it be demonstrated in the same way that physical phenomena can be demonstrated to be true via scientific analysis and experimentation. In fact, the experience of Higher Consciousness is transcendent of Reason, Logic, and Analysis, in the same manner in which the awakened state is beyond that of the sleep-dream state. When you are dreaming, you do not know that you are dreaming. On this level of reality, the dream is real to you. Were someone to interject into your dream of being a dragon-slayer and ask: 'Are you really a dragon-slayer?', you would emphatically answer in the affirmative. However, when awake, and asked the same question, you might respond with: 'Of course not! It was only a dream!'.......

(Sorry, lost the rest of my post in cyberspace, and will update later this eve)

 

[Trailblazer]

You are adding something to existence that doesn't exist. The sea is also associated with the fish, but the fish does not have a personal 'sea' associate with the fish called 'my sea'. If 'the soul' has no boundaries, then it cannot be 'A soul'; it is simply 'soul', but it is not 'MY' soul. You are creating a substantial, delusive idea called 'my soul' from a self-created principle that is the mind.

When I said “the soul cannot be contained and it has no boundaries since it is nonphysical” I meant it does not have physical boundaries since it is nonphysical. However, I believe the soul has a uniqueness, distinctness, individuality. In this physical world, one soul can only associated with one body; there is a one-to-one correlation.In the spiritual world, the soul will retain the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterized its life in this world.

You're making things up. Does the fish latch onto the sea around and inside of its body and think of it as his own personal sea? You admitted the soul is without boundaries, and yet want to make it personal to each individual. To personalize it is to encapsulate it, but that cannot be done. You are just forcing a notion in your head you call 'a soul' to be a reality. The only way you can resolve this is to first see that the self is illusory, and then to see beyond it.

I explained what I meant by boundaries above. I think you and I covered this ground a few months ago. I do not believe the self is illusory but rather that it is synonymous with the soul in the sense that the “true self” is who we are; it is our self. With all due respect, I do not make things up in my head. Everything I say comes from the Writings of my religion. Regarding the self....

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

You don't know that any of the above is true.

Now, what if the case is that The Universe is a manifestation of Pure Abstract Intelligence, and that this would include you and I? This intelligence is simply projecting itself and playing itself as Everything, but because of your rational mind, you create the notion that the intelligence you have is YOUR intelligence, as seen through your ego, and which you call 'my soul'. It isn't. You are just being fooled by the illusion that is the mind.

I cannot prove that any of the above is true, but I know it is true because I believe it with absolute certitude. I do not believe we ever lose our individuality although we can be “as one soul” if we are connected to other souls in the spiritual world.

“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170

But as I said, the spiritual world is a mystery, so we cannot understand how the soul will manifest itself there.

Not exactly what I am saying. Water and the snowflake are not two different things; in fact, they are not 'things' at all. They are just water in the formless state being transformed into form. At no time are they separate or different, except in appearance. IOW, You are none other than That, just as the snowflake is none other than water. So, you see, I am not saying that consciousness manifests itself IN the temporal body; I am saying that consciousness manifests itself AS the temporal body form. At no time are they different or separate. Do not confuse form for things

So you are saying that the soul manifests itself as a temporal body form which is responsible for consciousness? Are you saying that the temporal body and the soul are the same but just appear different? Are you saying that the soul is always connected to the body while we are alive in a body and the body-soul union is responsible for consciousness?

You still see God as 'self and other'. This distinction you maintain as real exists only in your mind in a subject/object split in the state of duality. Show me where one leaves off and the other begins.

I guess you believe in pantheism?

Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity,[1] or that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god[2]. Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal anthropomorphic god[3] and instead characterize a broad range of doctrines differing in forms of relationships between reality and divinity.[4]
Pantheism - Wikipedia

There is no way to “show” where God leaves off and self begins because as I said, God is exalted beyond and above proximity and remoteness, since His reality transcends such limitations. Likewise, there is no way for you to show that we are all part of God. These things are not provable; they are beliefs.

Who you are is none other than the very thing that is manifesting itself as you, but because of a flaw in the mind, you think that the thing that is manifesting itself is something distinct from you. Think about the drop of water returning to the vast limitless ocean. Can you see how the idea of an individual self or soul is empty?

No, I do not think that the thing that is manifesting itself is something distinct from me. Rather, it is me.

Are you saying that we are all drops of water that are part of the ocean, that we have no individuality in this physical world, nor will we have it in the spiritual world?

If there is no “self” how can we make decisions of our own? How can we be held accountable to other people or accountable in courts of law?

 

[Trailblazer]

Try this

That's what happens alright.....
After that, we are freed from this storehouse of suffering.

 

[godnotgod]

When I said “the soul cannot be contained and it has no boundaries since it is nonphysical” I meant it does not have physical boundaries since it is nonphysical. However, I believe the soul has a uniqueness, distinctness, individuality. In this physical world, one soul can only associated with one body; there is a one-to-one correlation.In the spiritual world, the soul will retain the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterized its life in this world.

When you take the time to think this through, such a position becomes ridiculous. Individuality, personality, personal consciousness, and 'understanding' are all interdependent upon and interactive with the social and physical environment in which you live. These attributes, or 'accretions', as I call them, have no place in what you are calling 'the spiritual world'; they are part and parcel of THIS world. You will stick out like a sore thumb when you bring all of that excess baggage with you into 'the spiritual world'. Having said that, it is clear that you are still living in the world of duality, in the subject/object split that exists only in your mind. There is no such thing as 'the spiritual world' vs. 'the physical world'. There is only one world, and this is it. 'Spiritual' and 'physical' are just notions/distinctions you maintain in your mind as the result of your social indoctrination and learning. Once you understand this, the world will come alive for you, instead of it being an object of the intellect.

Your attributes are temporal. They are not who you really are. They are temporal manifestations of the source. Who you really are is the source itself, pretending not to be the source. Why is another question. It's like the actor and the character he portrays. When the drama is over, the mask is put aside and the real person comes into play once more. The personality of the character is no more. However, were the actor to become so involved with the character that he actually believed himself to be that character, and to completely forget who he really is as the actor, then we might end up with a case like yours, in which the there is a permanent 'soul' with permanent attributes. It would be a case of the snowflake thinking it is the point, forgetting its true nature is attributeless, formless water, and that it goes on forever as a snowflake.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you take the time to think this through, such a position becomes ridiculous. Individuality, personality, personal consciousness, and 'understanding' are all interdependent upon and interactive with the social and physical environment in which you live. These attributes, or 'accretions', as I call them, have no place in what you are calling 'the spiritual world'; they are part and parcel of THIS world. You will stick out like a sore thumb when you bring all of that excess baggage with you into 'the spiritual world'. Having said that, it is clear that you are still living in the world of duality, in the subject/object split that exists only in your mind. There is no such thing as 'the spiritual world' vs. 'the physical world'. There is only one world, and this is it. 'Spiritual' and 'physical' are just notions/distinctions you maintain in your mind as the result of your social indoctrination and learning. Once you understand this, the world will come alive for you, instead of it being an object of the intellect.

Your attributes are temporal. They are not who you really are. They are temporal manifestations of the source. Who you really are is the source itself, pretending not to be the source. Why is another question. It's like the actor and the character he portrays. When the drama is over, the mask is put aside and the real person comes into play once more. The personality of the character is no more. However, were the actor to become so involved with the character that he actually believed himself to be that character, and to completely forget who he really is as the actor, then we might end up with a case like yours, in which the there is a permanent 'soul' with permanent attributes. It would be a case of the snowflake thinking it is the point, forgetting its true nature is attributeless, formless water, and that it goes on forever as a snowflake.

If we do not have these spiritual attributes which make up our character then we will be handicapped in the spiritual world, like a child that is born into this physical world with no arms or legs. If we do not develop our good qualities we will be like a nonexistent being, because only good exists in the spiritual world. Evil does not exist there.

Not having spiritual attributes, good character, can be thought of as hell. We all have our own identity and we will go to the level we are worthy to reside on and we will freely communicate with others on our own level. We will be aware of those souls who are on levels below us but those on the lower levels will not be aware of those who are above them.

I know that it is all one world, but we cannot see or communicate with the spiritual world from this material world, unless we are psychic. However, those in the spiritual world are well aware of us in this world and the holy souls in the spiritual world have a great effect upon for the progress in this world.

“A friend asked: “How should one look forward to death?”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

I did not say anything about the soul having permanent attributes. I only said it would have attributes that are distinct to it and not part of one big mass of souls that have no identity. I believe the soul will continue to advance after we die, but I do not know how that will happen. It is said in my religion that the soul can only advance by prayers of others for its advancement and good works done in its name, as well as by the bounty of God, but not by free will.

 

[godnotgod]

I cannot prove that any of the above is true, but I know it is true because I believe it with absolute certitude.

OMG! Are you kidding? C'mon. You can do better than that. You know belief does not make something true. If you don't, then your logic is seriously flawed twice over.

What you really mean is that you've driven a square peg into a round hole and then talked yourself into believing that you have a perfect fit. I really don't know if this conversation should continue in light of your untenable position.

 

[Trailblazer]

OMG! Are you kidding? C'mon. You can do better than that. You know belief does not make something true. If you don't, then your logic is seriously flawed twice over.

What you really mean is that you've driven a square peg into a round hole and then talked yourself into believing that you have a perfect fit. I really don't know if this conversation should continue in light of your untenable position.

You are the pot calling the kettle black.
Just because YOU believe something that does not make it true, not unless you can prove what you believe is true. Can you?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The word 'Enlightenment' is the term most associated with the fruits of Higher Consciousness. But since it is the direct experience of Reality, it cannot be defined in rational terms, nor can it be demonstrated in the same way that physical phenomena can be demonstrated to be true via scientific analysis and experimentation. In fact, the experience of Higher Consciousness is transcendent of Reason, Logic, and Analysis, in the same manner in which the awakened state is beyond that of the sleep-dream state. When you are dreaming, you do not know that you are dreaming. On this level of reality, the dream is real to you. Were someone to interject into your dream of being a dragon-slayer and ask: 'Are you really a dragon-slayer?', you would emphatically answer in the affirmative. However, when awake, and asked the same question, you might respond with: 'Of course not! It was only a dream!'.......

(Sorry, lost the rest of my post in cyberspace, and will update later this eve)

Then it comes down to this higher state of consciousness existing because you say it does. That's not very convincing to most people.

 

[godnotgod]

You are the pot calling the kettle black.
Just because YOU believe something that does not make it true, not unless you can prove what you believe is true. Can you?

Everything you have said is only about belief. You have admitted as much. What I have pointed out to you is verifiable via your own insight, but your beliefs are blocking your insight. Belief is arrived at via thought. Insight has no thought involved. It is simply seeing things as they are, without thought, and therefore cannot be based upon belief. But you refuse to see, and instead keep referring to your religious beliefs as truth. Do you understand why religious beliefs are not necessarily reality? To say that we each have an individual soul with its own personality is a belief. I have been trying to point out to you that it is an illusion generated by the ego that only seems real. If you can put your beliefs aside for a moment you will SEE that the notion of an individual soul is not the case. It's just a fabrication of the mind; an error in logic.

I am not saying that we do not experience something spiritual. But to encapsulate the spiritual experience into something called 'a soul' is a mistake of the thinking mind. Can you see how that is occurring or not?

A poor metaphor is what we call 'a whirlpool'. But the reality is that there is no such 'whirlpool'; there is only the action of whirling water. To see that this is the case is insight. But the mind transforms this action into a thing. Why? Because the conceptual mind sets up a subject/object split as a way of defining reality. It takes experience and turns it into a frozen reality, in this case 'a whirlpool', and 'a soul'. So what you are calling 'a soul' is in reality the spiritual experience which you are identifying with via your ego. You are personifying and personalizing it as 'me'. 'This is MY soul, when the reality is that it is just the experience of 'soul', or'spirit', or 'consciousness', which is everywhere at once.

 

[godnotgod]

Then it comes down to this higher state of consciousness existing because you say it does. That's not very convincing to most people.

Not at all. You can verify that it is real via your own direct experience, just as you can verify that the stove is hot by the direct experience of burning your finger, or that a kiwi tastes like it does by eating of it. Of course, that is verification of the phenomenal world via the senses, while the experience of higher consciousness is transcendent of the senses.

In the example I gave, when you are asleep and dreaming, you do not know you are dreaming. When you awaken from your dream, you then realize the illusory nature of the dream. Similarly, you do not know what higher states of consciousness are until you awaken from the current dream you are now experiencing, and which you call 'reality'. You call it 'reality' because you 'verify' it as such via the five senses, science being an extension of the senses.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Not at all. You can verify that it is real via your own direct experience, just as you can verify that the stove is hot by the direct experience of burning your finger, or that a kiwi tastes like it does by eating of it.

That looks like the same level of consciousness as everything else.

 

[godnotgod]

That looks like the same level of consciousness as everything else.

One is awakened consciousness; the other is not.

Is the sleep-dream level of consciousness the same as the awakened state?

 

[Earthling]

The soul is a difficult word. The Jerusalem Bible of 1966, I think it was, discontinued using the translation due to it's pagan meaning. The word comes from a root word which means "to bind." Superstitious people of antiquity would bind the hands and feet of the dead so that the undead wouldn't be able to harm them should they escape the grave.

The Bible teaches that the "soul," that is the Hebrew nephesh and the Greek psyke are both the life, life experiences or the blood of any breathing creature. So, when Noah was given the right to eat meat the blood was to be poured out on the ground rather than eaten, because it was the soul and sacred, that is, belonging to God.

The spirit, from the Hebrew word ruach and Greek pneuma (from which comes the English pneumatic and pneumonia) is an invisible active force. For example, the words can be translated as wind, breath, spirit creatures and . . . get this . . . mental inclination. For example, the man is mean spirited, or the spirit of the horse was broken.

 

[Trailblazer]

Everything you have said is only about belief. You have admitted as much. What I have pointed out to you is verifiable via your own insight, but your beliefs are blocking your insight. Belief is arrived at via thought. Insight has no thought involved. It is simply seeing things as they are, without thought, and therefore cannot be based upon belief. But you refuse to see, and instead keep referring to your religious beliefs as truth. Do you understand why religious beliefs are not necessarily reality? To say that we each have an individual soul with its own personality is a belief. I have been trying to point out to you that it is an illusion generated by the ego that only seems real. If you can put your beliefs aside for a moment you will SEE that the notion of an individual soul is not the case. It's just a fabrication of the mind; an error in logic.

Thought is why God created us with a brain. Insight or intuition is a part of the thought process, but it can be wrong. The logical reason why it can be wrong is that different people have different insights whereas there is only one reality. So who has the correct insight? How can you say that your insight is right and others are wrong?

With all due respect, you are the pot calling the kettle black because it is your ego that is attached to what you believe that you call insight. By contrast, what I believe comes from outside of me; I put my trust in something higher than myself, a Messenger of God. If God sent a Messenger to earth to convey information that is reality. That means anything that is incongruent with that reality is falsehood. I don’t know how much more clearly I can state this.

If I relied upon my own insight I would come to the same conclusions as my religious beliefs, that we have an individual soul that persists after death. Even NDE studies corroborate that we retain our individuality, that we do not become one big soul mass. This is logical, because we have individuality in this world so there is no reason why we would lose that after we die. And what are we going to actually “do” all merged as a mass?

I am not saying that we do not experience something spiritual. But to encapsulate the spiritual experience into something called 'a soul' is a mistake of the thinking mind. Can you see how that is occurring or not?

Now we are talking about something else. If we do not have a spiritual experience through the soul, how do we experience it?

A poor metaphor is what we call 'a whirlpool'. But the reality is that there is no such 'whirlpool'; there is only the action of whirling water. To see that this is the case is insight. But the mind transforms this action into a thing. Why? Because the conceptual mind sets up a subject/object split as a way of defining reality. It takes experience and turns it into a frozen reality, in this case 'a whirlpool', and 'a soul'. So what you are calling 'a soul' is in reality the spiritual experience which you are identifying with via your ego. You are personifying and personalizing it as 'me'. 'This is MY soul, when the reality is that it is just the experience of 'soul', or'spirit', or 'consciousness', which is everywhere at once.

No, that is not what I am doing. There would be no way for me to know what the soul is without the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the interpretations of those made by His appointed interpreters. I could imagine any number of things.

What you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a self, and this goes against not only religion but also against science andpsychology. It also makes no sense so it goes against logic. If we have no self then we have no mind of our own, no identity and no free will.