Does the Soul Exist?

[godnotgod]

I know because I thoroughly researched the Messenger and what he claimed in order to determine that He was telling the truth.

What lies inside the human mind is not reliable source of truth because the mind can play tricks on us, since so much lies in the subconscious mind that we are not even aware of.

You're completely irrational and full of religious doctrine. You are using your unreliable human mind to determine the external 'truth' of 'the messenger' to be authentic, which you admitted is only your belief. How can you determine anything to be authentic or not with a tool that is flawed from the very beginning?

You will take note that all along, I have been saying that, due to the flaw in the mind, we must go beyond the mind in order to tap into the Source of Perfect Understanding. It is inside, not in some doctrine that you believe in. You have everything backwards; the cart being ahead of the horse. If you first tap into the inner Source of the divine nature, you will learn to see correctly. Then, having had your faulty vision corrected, you can now read the scriptures with complete understanding, and not the other way around.

 

[godnotgod]

It's always been interesting to me that a concept like the soul can be so varied. In the Bible it's the life, the blood....

What is of interest to me is the Bible's version of it being the blood, while in the East the life-force is not the blood, but the breath. I am fairly convinced that the original view of the life-force was that it was the breath, and somehow became corrupted by pagan ideas which transformed it into that of the blood, especially the idea that the breath-based teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene being overwritten by Paul and Rome with those of the pagan god Mithra, as a device to lure thousands of pagans into the new religion. Pagans already had the promise of eternal life in their religion, so it was added to Yeshua's teachings to bring them in.

The Church did much the same thing in Mexico by 'adopting' the Aztec goddess of fertility, Tonantzin, and transforming her into Our Lady of Guadalupe Hidalgo in order to convert some two million Indios into Catholicism. The Indios simply followed their goddess right into the Church.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're completely irrational and full of religious doctrine. You are using your unreliable human mind to determine the external 'truth' of 'the messenger' to be authentic, which you admitted is only your belief. How can you determine anything to be authentic or not with a tool that is flawed from the very beginning?

My mind is not flawed. I do not believe in religious doctrines, doctrines are man-made. I believe in the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, and those were revealed to Him by God through the Holy Spirit.

You will take note that all along, I have been saying that, due to the flaw in the mind, we must go beyond the mind in order to tap into the Source of Perfect Understanding. It is inside, not in some doctrine that you believe in. You have everything backwards; the cart being ahead of the horse. If you first tap into the inner Source of the divine nature, you will learn to see correctly. Then, having had your faulty vision corrected, you can now read the scriptures with complete understanding, and not the other way around.

How do think you can go beyond the mind and tap into the Source of Perfect Understanding?

 

[godnotgod]

My mind is not flawed. I do not believe in religious doctrines, doctrines are man-made. I believe in the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, and those were revealed to Him by God through the Holy Spirit.

How do think you can go beyond the mind and tap into the Source of Perfect Understanding?

Baha’u’llah was a human who wrote scripture. Already, that is second-hand. Your reading and interpretation of his writings, or of any scripture is third hand, via a personal view. You have stated several times that your view is a set of beliefs that you think are absolute truth. You have posted excerpts from his writings that indicate the fallibility of the human mind.

Thought is the working of the human mind. Stop the mind and stop thought so you can SEE what is. Seeing is not of the mind, but of consciousness. The mind is a self-created principle, and as such, is flawed from the get-go Try it and you will note the difference between thinking and seeing.

 

[Earthling]

What is of interest to me is the Bible's version of it being the blood, while in the East the life-force is not the blood, but the breath. I am fairly convinced that the original view of the life-force was that it was the breath, and somehow became corrupted by pagan ideas which transformed it into that of the blood, especially the idea that the breath-based teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene being overwritten by Paul and Rome with those of the pagan god Mithra, as a device to lure thousands of pagans into the new religion. Pagans already had the promise of eternal life in their religion, so it was added to Yeshua's teachings to bring them in.

The Church did much the same thing in Mexico by 'adopting' the Aztec goddess of fertility, Tonantzin, and transforming her into Our Lady of Guadalupe Hidalgo in order to convert some two million Indios into Catholicism. The Indios simply followed their goddess right into the Church.

That's religion for you, but actually, in the Bible, long before Christ, that is the Hebrew / Aramaic scripture, the soul is in the blood, it is the life, the experiences, the desires of any creature. It comes from a root word that means breather, but the breath of life is the spirit. Though they are connected they are not the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha’u’llah was a human who wrote scripture. Already, that is second-hand.

Baha’u’llah was not just a human. He was a Manifestation of God, as was the Bab, which is another order of creation. There is no way any human can understand what a Manifestation of God is. The fact that they have a human nature is so they can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but they are divine in nature, what we ordinary humans can never be.

“In His Tablet to Muḥammad Sháh the Báb, moreover, has revealed: “I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendor can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade…. All the keys of heaven God hath chosen to place on My right hand, and all the keys of hell on My left…. I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly…. The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover….”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 43

Your reading and interpretation of his writings, or of any scripture is third hand, via a personal view. You have stated several times that your view is a set of beliefs that you think are absolute truth. You have posted excerpts from his writings that indicate the fallibility of the human mind.

The quotes indicate fallibility to you, but they indicate infallibility to me.

Thought is the working of the human mind. Stop the mind and stop thought so you can SEE what is. Seeing is not of the mind, but of consciousness. The mind is a self-created principle, and as such, is flawed from the get-go Try it and you will note the difference between thinking and seeing.

The rational soul is responsible for consciousness. All humans have a rational soul. The soul endowed with the spirit of faith sees. The following quotes are not from Baha’u’llah, they are from Addu’l-Baha, who was an appointed interpreter of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

“The first condition of perception in the world of nature is the perception of the rational soul. In this perception and in this power all men are sharers, whether they be neglectful or vigilant, believers or deniers. This human rational soul is God’s creation; it encompasses and excels other creatures; as it is more noble and distinguished, it encompasses things. The power of the rational soul can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul. There was a time when they were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and the hidden into the realm of the visible. This is the greatest power of perception in the world of nature, which in its highest flight and soaring comprehends the realities, the properties and the effects of the contingent beings.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 217-218

Only the Holy Manifestations of God have a universal divine mind, heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations. A portion and share of this power comes to the righteous man through the Holy Manifestations.

“But the universal divine mind, which is beyond nature, is the bounty of the Preexistent Power. This universal mind is divine; it embraces existing realities, and it receives the light of the mysteries of God. It is a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research. The intellectual power of the world of nature is a power of investigation, and by its researches it discovers the realities of beings and the properties of existences; but the heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations, and is the discoverer of the concealed verities of the Kingdom. This divine intellectual power is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and the Dawning-places of prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous, and a portion and a share of this power comes to them through the Holy Manifestations.

The Holy Manifestations have three conditions: one, the physical condition; one, that of the rational soul; and one, that of the manifestation of perfection and of the lordly splendor. The body comprehends things according to the degree of its ability in the physical world; therefore, in certain cases it shows physical weakness. For example: “I was sleeping and unconscious; the breeze of God passed over Me and awoke Me, and commanded Me to proclaim the Word”; or when Christ in His thirtieth year was baptized, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him; before this the Holy Spirit did not manifest itself in Him. All these things refer to the bodily condition of the Manifestations; but Their heavenly condition embraces all things, knows all mysteries, discovers all signs, and rules over all things; before as well as after Their mission, it is the same. That is why Christ has said: “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” 1 —that is to say, there has never been and never shall be any change and alteration in Me.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 218-219

 

[TruePathFinder]

Um...Maybe I'm dense but what do the soul and the brain have in common?

The brain makes every aspect of you you. People stuck in uninformed cults and systems of thought erroneously think and argue that an invisible soul makes you who you are.

 

[TruePathFinder]

When humans were even more primitive in their ideas they believed trees and rocks had spirits. Most religions are stuck in the primitive world.

 

[TruePathFinder]

We don't know exactly how consciousness is created by the brain, but that does not mean it is created by magic. God of the gaps arguments insert supernatural explanations where science hasn't advanced. History is filled with supernatural god of the gaps arguments that fell apart with the advances of science.

 

[Earthling]

The brain makes every aspect of you you.

That's a very interesting statement. First of all do we absolutely know for sure that the brain makes us who we are, especially when you say every aspect of us. For example, if our brain get's damaged it could change who we are, but if some other part of us get's damaged it changes who we are as well, is that independent or dependent upon the brain?

People stuck in uninformed cults and systems of thought erroneously think and argue that an invisible soul makes you who you are.

Though I agree with this, I detect a degree of arrogance. What about informed cults and systems of thought who, for example, speculate that the soul is, to some degree or another, having to do with the brain? The second half of your statement depends upon the definition of the soul.[/QUOTE]

 

[Earthling]

When humans were even more primitive in their ideas they believed trees and rocks had spirits. Most religions are stuck in the primitive world.

The only religion I can think of off hand that thinks that is Shintosim. Can you back up your claim by presenting some recording of a primitive human society other than Shintoism that thinks that way? The theory of evolution tends to produce artists renditions of early humans hunched over like monkeys gathered around a fire, hairy and dreaming about spirits in sticks and rocks and this is based on what? A piece of skull and shard of hip bone that turns out belonged to a pig.

The same artists, in the past, have made pictures of dinosaurs that were a specific color and having scales and now they think they may just as well have had feathers and looked more like ostriches or giant chickens. The movies always have dinosaurs roaring but maybe they squawked like a bird or hissed like an alligator.

I've discovered that a lot of times, science minded people make no more sense than religious people.

 

[Earthling]

We don't know exactly how consciousness is created by the brain, but that does not mean it is created by magic. God of the gaps arguments insert supernatural explanations where science hasn't advanced. History is filled with supernatural god of the gaps arguments that fell apart with the advances of science.

Not surprisingly, but couldn't the same thing be said of science arguments as well? The only difference is that the outcome of the God of the gaps would have been more predictable. But if you are talking about history the question then becomes at what stage did one graduate into the other and is it possibly cyclical.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Just because illusion is of The Absolute does not mean it is not problematical. The problem is to experience illusion and think it to be reality, and then to act upon it or base your ideas about how you relate to reality upon it..

Ah...but I never said illusion was not problematic. Only that if it is acknowledged, then we have created a dichotomy. Hence the "many in one." The every"thing" in no"thing".

If suffering does not matter to you, then the error in the mind is of no importance. But for most of us, the resultant suffering does matter, and many throughout history have tried to find a way out of it. Unfortunately, the illusion has a powerful grasp upon the mind, and it is no small matter to be free of it. This apples to the great majority of mankind, which does not understand the nature of their suffering. It took many years of sometimes intense suffering for the Buddha to finally come to grips with the issue and overcome it.

Essentially, the illusion and its pursuit by men take three forms: Power, Sensation, and Security. These three Addictions are what most of mankind is in pursuit of, in various combinations, and which have been the causes of great misery throughout history. All are driven by Desire. But when Love comes into play, these three Addictions are transformed into Preferences. Love provides the necessary insight into the nature of these three Addictions so they are no longer a cause of suffering. An enlightened mind knows how to deal with them, instead of being yanked along by them. That is the difference.

I tend to remember during times of suffering that I am a perceiving being in a complex universe and someday I will die and melt back into it, and my mind will become part of the Absolute again.

I just acknowledge that this World of Perception, whether I label it reality or illusion (would that even matter?) exists.

 

[atanu]

I know because I thoroughly researched the Messenger and what he claimed in order to determine that He was telling the truth.

What lies inside the human mind is not reliable source of truth because the mind can play tricks on us, since so much lies in the subconscious mind that we are not even aware of.

I think that I could not make my meaning clear to you. I will try once more.

You said: "I do not believe that the true nature of reality can be found within. What is found within is subject to error. I rely upon the Messenger of God for truth because He is infallible."

Whether Messenger is true or not can only be judged with what you are already endowed with -- with your own intellect and power of discernment.

 

[TruePathFinder]

That's a very interesting statement. First of all do we absolutely know for sure that the brain makes us who we are, especially when you say every aspect of us. For example, if our brain get's damaged it could change who we are, but if some other part of us get's damaged it changes who we are as well, is that independent or dependent upon the brain?



Though I agree with this, I detect a degree of arrogance. What about informed cults and systems of thought who, for example, speculate that the soul is, to some degree or another, having to do with the brain? The second half of your statement depends upon the definition of the soul.

[/QUOTE]
There are no informed cults. Christianity for example cannot be informed. There are a gazillion definitions of the soul by uninformed individuals.

 

[Earthling]

There are no informed cults. Christianity for example cannot be informed. There are a gazillion definitions of the soul by uninformed individuals.

Let me ask you this; if there are only two possible avenues for mankind's future and they are seemingly incompatible would it be wrong for one to limit the possibilities of the other? Let's say, for example, the two avenues were the Bible and science and technology. Let's say you were on the side of science and me, the Bible. How could we help one another or at least, allow one another the freedom to do what we think is right?

When you say Christianity cannot be informed it begs the question, by informed do you mean in agreement with your own philosophy, because that comes off as really xenophobic.

 

[TruePathFinder]

I am s

Let me ask you this; if there are only two possible avenues for mankind's future and they are seemingly incompatible would it be wrong for one to limit the possibilities of the other? Let's say, for example, the two avenues were the Bible and science and technology. Let's say you were on the side of science and me, the Bible. How could we help one another or at least, allow one another the freedom to do what we think is right?

When you say Christianity cannot be informed it begs the question, by informed do you mean in agreement with your own philosophy, because that comes off as really xenophobic.

My philosophy is to live in reality. Christianity is based on too many delusions to be in touch with reality. You can't be objective if you believe in winged creatures, god coming in the form of a man, walking on water, parting of the sea, meeting god on a mountain to receive tablets of law, burning bushes talking, eternal pit of fire for unbelievers, and so on. That is the stuff of myths, not reality. A raging war between God and a devil is not occuring. It is a delusion. It is the myth of tomorrow. I hold on to reality.
You are free to live and do as you please. Enjoy. But I hold steadfast to what is real.

 

[godnotgod]

Baha’u’llah was not just a human. He was a Manifestation of God, as was the Bab, which is another order of creation. There is no way any human can understand what a Manifestation of God is. The fact that they have a human nature is so they can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but they are divine in nature, what we ordinary humans can never be.

If that is the case, then how can ordinary humans, who are without a divine nature, understand the language of the divine itself? Only that which is divine can understand the language of the divine. You say you do not have this nature. How can you know with certainty exactly what the divine messengers are communicating to you without it? You have stated that your belief is essentially certainty, but you still cling to belief. Obviously you think the messengers are on a higher level than the human level. Something has to be awake and attentive in man for him to know what the message is. Without such attention and wakefulness, man is dumb and blind in relation to the divine.

Do you know anything at all? I don't think so. I think you are still seeing everything via your beliefs, and not via your insight.

Have you noticed that I don't rely on scripture very much at all, except to occasionally support a point I am making?

You see. If 'God' wanted to communicate to man, he would not do it from the outside via second-hand scripture so men might mis-interpret the message, because misinterpretation is exactly the case. What he would do is to live intimately inside all of his creation and communicate to man from the inside, not via the written word. There is no comparison. One of the problems is that the written word is something that comes from the mind and it is the mind which attempts to make sense of it. But the spirit does not come from the intellect. That is what I have been trying to get across to you. The spirit is beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis. The reason you still cling to belief is because you are in the realm of the mind, and not in the spirit. Your intellect is telling you that you have no divine nature, and you believe it. You cannot know the spirit, ie the divine nature, until you let go of the intellect. It is your intellect which has latched onto religious doctrine and sees it as 'truth'. But as I keep telling you, and as Yeshua pointed out: 'You search the scriptures for eternal life, but it is I whom the scriptures are about'. He also said that the kingdom of God is within, and so these two statement taken together point to the divine nature within each of us.

 

[Trailblazer]

The brain makes every aspect of you you. People stuck in uninformed cults and systems of thought erroneously think and argue that an invisible soul makes you who you are.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world.

The soul is animates the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality; the body is just our outer shell.

 

[osgart]

The soul to me is the heart, mind, and will of a unified single living being. Whatever the form or cause of it, physical or not, it is real.