janesix
Active Member
I consider the soul to be an individual consciousness. I don't believe in an afterlife,or a soul living or experiencing outside the body.
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Does the Soul Exist?
- Thread starter TruePathFinder
- Start date
stvdv
Veteran Member
Yes you did forget to say you are ignorant !!!
GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
This thread is so typical: people declaring what they believe with no evidence.
Near-death experiences have been extensively studied over the years. Trying to explain them in terms of brain conditions ignores the fact that they have distinctive features which do not occur under other circunstances. Claiming that the experiencer was "not really dead" ignores cases where brain waves were being measured and had stopped. I recommend Paranormal experience and survival of death, by Professor Carl Becker.
The idea that statements about the mind can be replaced by statements about the body is a claim that has never been confirmed and there are plenty of explanations of its inherent implausibility by philosophers like Stefan Körner and Karl Popper.
Near-death experiences have been extensively studied over the years. Trying to explain them in terms of brain conditions ignores the fact that they have distinctive features which do not occur under other circunstances. Claiming that the experiencer was "not really dead" ignores cases where brain waves were being measured and had stopped. I recommend Paranormal experience and survival of death, by Professor Carl Becker.
The idea that statements about the mind can be replaced by statements about the body is a claim that has never been confirmed and there are plenty of explanations of its inherent implausibility by philosophers like Stefan Körner and Karl Popper.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
My experience coincides with a unified consistent, and constant being composed of heart, mind, and will. These things all work together, and never change. Now how anybody can reduce that to matter and energy contradicts my experience. So the soul is one of those things that is subjectively known but cant be conveyed to others whom dont recognize their own self soul.
The I of self is a very real thing. Now tell me where in the Brain is an I? Keep reducing everything to the physical and all of it just turns to dust. The life is neither in the blood or brain. Every physical function of consciousness is in the brain, but the life essence will never be explained away by it.
Taking inventory of the physicalists:
No soul
No spirit
No freedom of will
The self is an illusion
And you have no control over the self because its all determined by physical laws.
Pretty close to non existence.
Is there anything else physicalists would like to remove from my fact of being. Its a dismal explanation that dont jive with my experience. Im glad i dont have to live it. I dont want to live like a passing wave of the sea, only the wave is an illusion.
I mean love bears its own evidence of the self. Perhaps all these other explanations are an illusion, i think they are.
The I of self is a very real thing. Now tell me where in the Brain is an I? Keep reducing everything to the physical and all of it just turns to dust. The life is neither in the blood or brain. Every physical function of consciousness is in the brain, but the life essence will never be explained away by it.
Taking inventory of the physicalists:
No soul
No spirit
No freedom of will
The self is an illusion
And you have no control over the self because its all determined by physical laws.
Pretty close to non existence.
Is there anything else physicalists would like to remove from my fact of being. Its a dismal explanation that dont jive with my experience. Im glad i dont have to live it. I dont want to live like a passing wave of the sea, only the wave is an illusion.
I mean love bears its own evidence of the self. Perhaps all these other explanations are an illusion, i think they are.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Its a medical fact.
How our brain and body interprets stimuli via different types of information it receives. Our brains interpret the information. Our minds uses language either behavioral and/or verbal (depending on ability) interpet in a form of language. Hence, communication develops.
Consciousness or awareness is the body and mind successfully interpets stimuli both body and mind (we're not numb nor brain dead).
Force is another word for energy and so is spirit by definition of function
Soul is not a medical word. I noticed every person who speaks of a soul says that there is some thought, feeling, and enheightened understanding of self. Its both psychological and psysiological. I notice eastern religions understand this more than western ones.
Soul as refers and is defined as the nature of something. Its being. Our beings are how we internalize what and who we are to ourselves and others. Its a cultural understanding of ourselves in a given environment, society, community, and/or family.
Its the totality with our passions that makes us who we are and its our minds that express it and our bodies that feel it. Thats where a a greater experience or greater conciousness are defined. The totality experience we cannot explain.
Its all about relationship between body, mind, self, and others.
The soul exists because we do. Once we die, it no longer exists
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Its a medical fact our brains can and have the ability to mirror near-death experiences. Religious and supernaturalness of the events doesnt mean it has no specific cause. We just dont know the logistics of how our brains put together those experiences.
What part of the near-death experience cannot be explained by the brain?
Not the conclusions and relations to religious understandings. Is there a specific thing the body or mind does not exist but still is present in near-death despite the physical and mental (not spiritual) unability to create that experience?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Its also a medical experience of having neuroligcal and psychological issues for the past twenty years. Ive experienced every other thing religious would call spiritual. Some even thought they could get the holy spirit from me. Its not book knowledge. I did look it up. Its interesting how much our reality is interpeted by our brain.
We can say their is an external reality all we want, but how can you say there is unless you can experience something that cant be felt and thought of by brain, body, snd mind.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Can you guys describe the nature of the soul apart from your physical and mental experiences that provided your interpretation of conclusions the soul exist that anyone with your experience will conclude likewise?
It seems to me that the "soul" (in the Bible) is very misunderstood. It has taken on connotations from other religious concepts and completely lost its original Biblical Hebrew meaning.
A "soul" in the Bible is the whole, living, breathing creature, either man or animal. At no time did it ever mean a disembodied spirit.
According to Genesis, originally, everlasting life was given only to humans...not to animals. Humans had superiority over the animals and were given dominion over them as the only ones created in the "image" of their Creator, and hence his representatives here on earth, to take care of everything.
In Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote..."I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish." (Ecclesiastes 3:10-11)
We alone have a concept of eternity because we were designed to live forever. We are the only beings on the planet who can logically plan our actions based on the ability to imagine future outcomes, as God does. But when sin entered the world, we lost our superiority over the animals because now we die the same death that they do.
"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:18-20)
There is nothing to depart from the body at death except the last breath. The breath is what God gave to Adam to start him living.
"....God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul". (Genesis 2:7) All living things "breathe" and this is the basic meaning of the word "spirit" in Hebrew. Adam "became" a "soul" when God started him breathing.
When David wrote in Psalm 146:4..."His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." He was confirming what God told Adam....."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Solomon also wrote...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 10)
There is no consciousness after death.
The brain is the source of consciousness. It is the first organ to die due to oxygen deprivation when we stop breathing.
We can be rendered 'unconscious' with anesthetic with no awareness of what happened during a surgical procedure. We sleep at night in a state of unconsciousness, not knowing how long we have slept unless we look at a clock. But other senses take over while we sleep. We can be awakened by sounds or movement.
Death is like sleep....except that we cannot be awakened by anyone except God.
Eccl 12:7...."Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it."
It isn't the 'soul' that goes to God...it is the "spirit" that is symbolically returned, because only God can resurrect a soul and return the breath to them. The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul.
That is how we see it.
A "soul" in the Bible is the whole, living, breathing creature, either man or animal. At no time did it ever mean a disembodied spirit.
According to Genesis, originally, everlasting life was given only to humans...not to animals. Humans had superiority over the animals and were given dominion over them as the only ones created in the "image" of their Creator, and hence his representatives here on earth, to take care of everything.
In Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote..."I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish." (Ecclesiastes 3:10-11)
We alone have a concept of eternity because we were designed to live forever. We are the only beings on the planet who can logically plan our actions based on the ability to imagine future outcomes, as God does. But when sin entered the world, we lost our superiority over the animals because now we die the same death that they do.
"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:18-20)
There is nothing to depart from the body at death except the last breath. The breath is what God gave to Adam to start him living.
"....God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul". (Genesis 2:7) All living things "breathe" and this is the basic meaning of the word "spirit" in Hebrew. Adam "became" a "soul" when God started him breathing.
When David wrote in Psalm 146:4..."His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." He was confirming what God told Adam....."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Solomon also wrote...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 10)
There is no consciousness after death.
The brain is the source of consciousness. It is the first organ to die due to oxygen deprivation when we stop breathing.
We can be rendered 'unconscious' with anesthetic with no awareness of what happened during a surgical procedure. We sleep at night in a state of unconsciousness, not knowing how long we have slept unless we look at a clock. But other senses take over while we sleep. We can be awakened by sounds or movement.
Death is like sleep....except that we cannot be awakened by anyone except God.
Eccl 12:7...."Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it."
It isn't the 'soul' that goes to God...it is the "spirit" that is symbolically returned, because only God can resurrect a soul and return the breath to them. The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul.
That is how we see it.
So, who has made the above post? The physical brain or you? Who are you? Do you exist or not?
stvdv
Veteran Member
Your quote is quite a big statement IMHO. And debatable. Is your brain the source of "everything", or my brain or .... xx brain
And you are sure "it's the source of everything"
Everything is "quite a lot". When one claims something, esp. on debate forum, it's smart not to use the word everything or everybody IMO.
Some religious people also claim "my truth is the truth for everybody". Also not so scientific. I had to learn this also.
Correct "a" medical experience, for only 20 years probably done on "unenlightened human beings" by "unenlightened scientists".
Not to demean "unenlightened humans", but a scientist should know that it might be a problem to proof something beyond their "knowledge grade".
Science is said to be below mind/intellect, whereas spirituality is beyond mind/intellect [by the sages of the past; which I don't dismiss so easy]
Ive experienced every other thing: Again this[every] here is a big thing to say of yourself [if Ive=I've].
I fully agree with this statement. [FYI:advaita can shed light and wisdom here]. A true enlightened being is known by granting you true experiences.
Shushersbedamned
Well-Known Member
I believe in the soul - but maybe those who don't are suppressing theirs.
stvdv
Veteran Member
IMHO
seems seems correct word here.
If the brain does everything seems again quite a bold statement to make. Your brain does everything, or my brain, or xx brain
And everything. That is quite a bold statement also. Looking at the stars and beyond the milky ways. Brain is quite small when seen in contrast.
Since it has no function it is safe to say it does not exist
Science is below the mind/intellect and spirituality is beyond this [sages have declared]. So it makes sense that science can't determine this. Above I questioned "brain does everything". So I see no proof here at all yet.
I do believe soul does not exist though. But not because science claims this, for this I rely on spirituality.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Soul is not a big word. It is a small word. The nature of the soul is a mystery no human mind can ever hope to unravel.
However, the function of the soul is knowable.
It depends upon what you believe. I haven't seen any unbiased evidence that this has ever occurred. As far as I'm concerned, the soul, as some thing apart from our personality and the sum total of our experiences, just doesn't exist.
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stvdv
Veteran Member
I don't do believe. I also don't do scientific evidence.
I like to check out all things myself. What I experience myself I know to be true experience for me. No need for science to confirm.
The sages all claim "sit down in meditation and stuff will be revealed to you (if you don't give in to getting up/out)"
The real scientist should meditate before claiming anything about matters that are above science IMHO.
[science is below mind/intellect, whereas spirituality is beyond mind/intellect]
I do not believe anyone gets anywhere by just reading about what others think [in spiritual matters]
Just meditate and get your own experience. As simple as that [never said it is easy though]
For me this is experienced reality
I don't do believe. I also don't do scientific evidence.
I like to check out all things myself. What I experience myself I know to be true experience for me. No need for science to confirm.
The sages all claim "sit down in meditation and stuff will be revealed to you (if you don't give in to getting up/out)"
The real scientist should meditate before claiming anything about matters that are above science IMHO.
[science is below mind/intellect, whereas spirituality is beyond mind/intellect]
I do not believe anyone gets anywhere by just reading about what others think [in spiritual matters]
Just meditate and get your own experience. As simple as that [never said it is easy though]
For me this is experienced reality
Possibly we operate differently.
For me, the mind is still not understood so as to be completely explainable, and there is plenty of room for our minds to deceive us as to what we eventually come to believe or not. Thoughts, dreams, or whatever.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Possibly we operate differently.
When doing engineering I heard someone saying "Bootstrapping, interpreted as pulling yourself up on your own boots". Kind of impossible.
I have the same feeling with "understanding the mind using the mind". Kind of impossible IMO.
Many people quote all the time "Your mind can trick you so easy". But still they try to understand "mind by using mind".
I don't get it. I agree that the "mind can trick you very easy". So I do not try to understand the mind using the mind.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Does the TV signal die when the TV no longer works?
I don't see an individual 'soul' since I don't see an individual 'self'. IOW, there is non-local consciousness without an 'I' that is not only animating who and what you really are, but is storing information in the brain for autonomic response, so that consciousness can focus on what is going on in the present moment. There is no 'experiencer of the experience' called 'I', or 'soul', or 'self'; there is only the experience itself, and you are that experience. What you really are is a total action of the Universe, thinking you are a separate 'self' apart from the Universe, which is impossible. It's a delusion.
The following excerpt is from an interview of Sam Harris about the existence of the self. Pay attention esp to the image of the square:
G.G.: You deny the existence of the self, understood as “an inner subject thinking our thoughts and experiencing our experiences.” You say, further, that the experience of meditation (as practiced, for example, in Buddhism) shows that there is no self. But you also admit that we all “feel like an internal self at almost every waking moment.” Why should a relatively rare — and deliberately cultivated — experience of no-self trump this almost constant feeling of a self?
S.H.: Because what does not survive scrutiny cannot be real. Perhaps you can see the same effect in this perceptual illusion:
Photo
Credit
It certainly looks like there is a white square in the center of this figure, but when we study the image, it becomes clear that there are only four partial circles. The square has been imposed by our visual system, whose edge detectors have been fooled. Can we know that the black shapes are more real than the white one? Yes, because the square doesn’t survive our efforts to locate it — its edges literally disappear. A little investigation and we see that its form has been merely implied.
What could we say to a skeptic who insisted that the white square is just as real as the three-quarter circles and that its disappearance is nothing more than, as you say, “a relatively rare — and deliberately cultivated — experience”? All we could do is urge him to look more closely.
The same is true about the conventional sense of self — the feeling of being a subject inside your head, a locus of consciousness behind your eyes, a thinker in addition to the flow of thoughts. This form of subjectivity does not survive scrutiny. If you really look for what you are calling “I,” this feeling will disappear. In fact, it is easier to experience consciousness without the feeling of self than it is to banish the white square in the above image.
Sam Harris's Vanishing Self
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The brain (which is inpart controls the mind) controls all we experience both mentally and physically for all living beings. Unless you are no a living being,
what do you think controls who you are and experience both mind and body?On that note, I dont understand this statement. An enlightened being, if one uses that term, is someone who is aligned with their mind, body, and soul together. Harmomic in body and mind. It isnt supernatural, unless you can explain an experience outside our body and mind to interpet it.