Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[YmirGF]

Only because you cannot understand that, but that's Ok, I wont hold that against you.

So, like with the others, you are saying that this is indeed a "Member's Only" thingy, correct? Or in other words, "If you doubt what we are saying, you obviously do not understand. As IF you understood there is no question, whatsoever, that you would be agreeing with us." Is that about right?

 

[Looncall]

Its it's own evidence, you are only seeing what you see from a perspective, but this isn't all there is, you have to see the bigger picture to realize this.

It's its own evidence? Oh, ho, ho, ha, ha! That's just nuts.

Such a vast claim and you cannot back it up? Really?

I'm not sure that the words you string together to make your claim even make sense when combined. Not even wrong.

 

[godnotgod]

The use of the intellect provides us with factual information about the universe, but intelligence is what the universe actually is, because:

'The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

So, when we observe the Universe as separate object, via our conceptual frameworks, which are Time, Space, and Causation, we see it as composed of separate, unintelligent 'things', in perpetual motion. That view represents our perception only. But the very definition of 'Universe' is that it is One, as in 'Uni'. The realization of this 'One-ness' occurs only when the mind is empty of concepts, like a mirror, which sees things as they actually are, yet retains no image of them. This state of emptiness, or 'innocency', is intelligence itself, the same intelligence that is the Universe, as we are not separate from it.

'The eye with which you see The Universe is the same eye with which the Universe sees you'

modified from:
“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”

― Meister Eckhart, Sermons of Meister Eckhart

 

[godnotgod]

Bang your head on the wall til it bleeds.....then YOU will understand.

oh that's right ....YOU don't exist.

I understand.

So, did your 'understanding' come about via banging your head on the wall til it bled, or was it by forcing square pegs into round holes?

How do you make your children 'understand'?

 

[godnotgod]

Only because you cannot understand that, but that's Ok, I wont hold that against you.

I don't hold it against anyone either, but when someone makes the claim that they understand it, and then flippantly dismiss it as extreme, barren, etc., I have to intervene.

 

[Muffled]

Do you equate that with the big bang? The problem is we currently have no language to describe "before" the big bang.

The Big Bang is just a mathematical theory. No-one was there to view creation except God and He tends not to go into the details.

 

[Muffled]

I haven't got the energy to wade through all that, could you give me a quick synopsis of how you personally experience God?
And what's your take on the OP, do you believe the universe is intelligent? And if so, how does that relate to God?

I experience God with my mind and my spirit.

I do not believe the universe is intelligent. But I could be as dumb as rocks, lol.

I believe God is intelligent and orders the universe in creation and temporally.

 

[godnotgod]

The Big Bang is just a mathematical theory. No-one was there to view creation except God and He tends not to go into the details.

The Big Bang is not an event that occurred in some distant past It is still going on as we speak, and we are part of it. In fact, we are 100% integrated with the BB, and if we are intelligent, so is the Universe.

The BB was an event in consciousness. Out of this Nothingness that is Consciousness, came the manifested worlds.

 

[godnotgod]

I experience God with my mind and my spirit.

I do not believe the universe is intelligent. But I could be as dumb as rocks, lol.

I believe God is intelligent and orders the universe in creation and temporally.

You are creating a model of God via your own mental formations.

 

[Looncall]

The use of the intellect provides us with factual information about the universe, but intelligence is what the universe actually is, because:

'The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

So, when we observe the Universe as separate object, via our conceptual frameworks, which are Time, Space, and Causation, we see it as composed of separate, unintelligent 'things', in perpetual motion. That view represents our perception only. But the very definition of 'Universe' is that it is One, as in 'Uni'. The realization of this 'One-ness' occurs only when the mind is empty of concepts, like a mirror, which sees things as they actually are, yet retains no image of them. This state of emptiness, or 'innocency', is intelligence itself, the same intelligence that is the Universe, as we are not separate from it.

'The eye with which you see The Universe is the same eye with which the Universe sees you'

modified from:
“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”

― Meister Eckhart, Sermons of Meister Eckhart

This seems to be some weird, far-out, made-up, use of the word intelligence that bears no relation to reality.

You are taking your altered-state experiences as evidence of things outside your own head, I do not think you are justified in doing so. You may experience this one-ness, but you must show that it isn't happening just inside your own skull.

Eckhart sounds like some far-out twit, from this quotation. Argument from authority is a fallacy.

 

[YmirGF]

You are creating a model of God via your own mental formations.

It is astounding to me that you can understand they Muffled is creating a model of god and yet you do not seem to appreciate that your own diatribes in this thread are exactly the same type of thing.

 

[godnotgod]

It is astounding to me that you can understand they Muffled is creating a model of god and yet you do not seem to appreciate that your own diatribes in this thread are exactly the same type of thing.

It's astounding to you because you are making an error in logic. Muffled's images are based first on belief, and then on projection only. OTOH, we have a universe that is not only visible, but within which we are totally immersed. Of this there is no doubt. The actual and real universe can be experienced directly, first hand. That it is intelligent is not my opinion. It is the same as in Plato's Cave: one of the prisoners has directly experienced the Sun, but cannot show evidence to the others unless they go outside to see for themselves. That the universe is intelligent is questionable to you because you are looking at it through a conditioned mentality that dictates to you that anything without a brain cannot be intelligent. That is your narrow paradigm you think is noble, also dictated to you by the paradigm itself.

 

[godnotgod]

This seems to be some weird, far-out, made-up, use of the word intelligence that bears no relation to reality.

You are taking your altered-state experiences as evidence of things outside your own head, I do not think you are justified in doing so. You may experience this one-ness, but you must show that it isn't happening just inside your own skull.

Eckhart sounds like some far-out twit, from this quotation. Argument from authority is a fallacy.

Except that it is not an argument, but a confirmation of what I am saying. Who you refer to as a 'twit', just happens to be one of the greatest mystics of all time.

You've got things backwards, but that is no surprise, as it is typical of cranium oriented people who think the brain is the center of everything, who have never developed their intuitive knowledge, and so demand evidence for everything. They cannot even tell if they exist without some intellectual crutch. What you are calling 'altered state experiences' are what ordinary people are experiencing every day. Most people have had their consciousness altered since birth and not only do not realize it, but deny it vehemently. We have been thoroughly indoctrinated to see the world through our intellect; via logic, reason, and analysis, and as a result, are neither seeing nor experiencing the world as it actually is. The fallout is the current sorry state of the world.

I do not rely on what goes on in my own skull to ascertain what is real. I rely on my direct experience of reality, what I am immersed in right at this moment, and not what I think about it. What I think about it comes after the experience. While it is important to have both, one must also know the difference between the two. As Maharishi Mahesh Yogi used to say:

'The description is not the described.'

Real intelligence is to be free of any altered state of consciousness, and that is what the universe is: intelligence. But you cannot possibly see that until you free yourself of our own altered state of awareness.

 

[YmirGF]

It's astounding to you because you are making an error in logic. Muffled's images are based first on belief, and then on projection only. OTOH, we have a universe that is not only visible, but within which we are totally immersed. Of this there is no doubt.

Well, OK. I can't argue that. It would seem to be a tad obvious. That aside, you must be using a different form of logic than rational human animals.

The actual and real universe can be experienced directly, first hand.

Again, obviously.

That it is intelligent is not my opinion.

Yes, it is in fact, your opinion. I think you are fooling yourself thinking that it is not. I see you more as projecting that quality onto reality. You see what you expect to see, hence the universe seems intelligent to you. Failure to understand this can become problematic.

It is the same as in Plato's Cave: one of the prisoners has directly experienced the Sun, but cannot show evidence to the others unless they go outside to see for themselves. That the universe is intelligent is questionable to you because you are looking at it through a conditioned mentality that dictates to you that anything without a brain cannot be intelligent. That is your narrow paradigm you think is noble, also dictated to you by the paradigm itself.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I don't buy into the "conditioning" shlock. It is a convenient mechanism used in deflecting requests for meaningful evidence. In a very real sense you are playing the authoritarian game. You point out a given thing, cite others who feel the same way and rush to the conclusion that things MUST be that way.

Does it ever occur to you that you have simply divorced yourself from your own perceptions in your drive to annihilate all sense of self?

 

[Looncall]

<snip>

Real intelligence is to be free of any altered state of consciousness, and that is what the universe is: intelligence. But you cannot possibly see that until you free yourself of our own altered state of awareness.

"The universe is intelligence" ... word salad.

I am, not impressed by navel-gazing mystics, especially one from the ages of humanity's ignorance.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't buy into the "conditioning" shlock.

OK, the obvious:

So Nazi soldiers weren't indoctrinated. Catholics are not indoctrinated. North Koreans, Muslim extremists, American Christians, Americans period, all not indoctrinated. Just so much 'conditioning shlock', right? Please confirm this so we can move on.

 

[godnotgod]

Well, OK. I can't argue that. It would seem to be a tad obvious. That aside, you must be using a different form of logic than rational human animals.

Again, obviously.

Yes, it is in fact, your opinion. I think you are fooling yourself thinking that it is not. I see you more as projecting that quality onto reality. You see what you expect to see, hence the universe seems intelligent to you. Failure to understand this can become problematic.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I don't buy into the "conditioning" shlock. It is a convenient mechanism used in deflecting requests for meaningful evidence. In a very real sense you are playing the authoritarian game. You point out a given thing, cite others who feel the same way and rush to the conclusion that things MUST be that way.

Does it ever occur to you that you have simply divorced yourself from your own perceptions in your drive to annihilate all sense of self?

No. I use my perceptions all the time. But I know the difference between perceptual reality and reality beyond perceptions.

Why would I try l to annihilate that which doesn't exist in the first place?

I cite others who have come to the same conclusions independently of myself, and who have done so throughout history, and in different places around the world. Ultimately, however, that they confirm the veracity of my experience is not required. I am certain of what my experience is. I have zero doubt.

If it were merely my opinion that the universe is intelligent, that would have to entail some kind of thinking process, wouldn't it?

 

[godnotgod]

"The universe is intelligence" ... word salad.

I am, not impressed by navel-gazing mystics, especially one from the ages of humanity's ignorance.

I am certain that Mr. Eckhart cares not one whit whether you are impressed or not.

Word salad to you, because your view is a totally conditioned one, thereby preventing you from seeing and experiencing the intelligent nature of the universe. To you, it's just a dead object of scientific observation to be dissected, analyzed, categorized, and stuffed into a jar of formaldehyde so you can sleep at nights. You and your science really believe you're going to someday figure it all out with your head, don't you? How is it that you, a supposedly intelligent entity, who is supported in every possible way by the universe, deny that very universe intelligence, yet claim it for your own, demanding evidence with Nazi like precision and efficiency for it's intelligence?

"You papers, please? No papers? Go to cell block 666. Next!"

 

[YmirGF]

OK, the obvious:

So Nazi soldiers weren't indoctrinated. Catholics are not indoctrinated. North Koreans, Muslim extremists, American Christians, Americans period, all not indoctrinated. Just so much 'conditioning shlock', right? Please confirm this so we can move on.

It is beyond me how you can lump all these categories together. You are trying to be serious, right? Putting these groups next to each other underscores the questionable nature of your assertion.

Again, we have fundamentally different perspectives about the "true" nature of reality, GnG. I do not tend to minimize the role of the mind in the manner that you do by pretending to go "beyond" the mind. If anything, you are getting into the heart of what the mind really is, in my view. Since that view is so radically different, you assume that it is not of the mind.

At one time, I would have largely echoed exactly what you are saying. Dead straight.
I've moved beyond the absolutes, as it were, but even in my view, I no longer pretend to see reality As It Is.
From my perspective, thinking one has sees things as they are or reality as it is serves to underscore that they still have much to discover.

As far as the universe being intelligent, I simply do not know if it is or not. I've not seen enough of it to render a meaningful answer. I don't pretend to be all that is, or to be seeing reality as it is. Most certainly, my perspective is not the norm, by any measure, but in my old age, having been at this for a very long time (in Earth years, at lest) I've learned to be cautious in my pronouncements about what is and what is not. I am concerned about people who are absolutely certain as with certainly an ossification occurs. In some respects one's reason goes flitting off with ones imagination into a realm of make believe. I've definitely seen a rather lot of that sort of thing in this very thread.

 

[godnotgod]

It is beyond me how you can lump all these categories together. You are trying to be serious, right? Putting these groups next to each other underscores the questionable nature of your assertion.

All of these groups have one thing in common: they have been indoctrinated. It is something that goes on every single day, for example, in our schools, as children pledge allegiance to the flag. Muslim extremists are indoctrinated to believe what some 'Allah' in the sky dictates. Nazis were indoctrinated to serve 'der Faderland', and on and on. I am surprised you don't see the common thread here. So how about it: Is social indoctrination a fact, or just 'shlock'? This should be common knowledge from your high school social studies course. But of course those who are so indoctrinated will refuse to admit it, but that is how indoctrination works. It's a subtle form of brainwashing, but just as effective in getting the results our schools, governments, parents, and religious leaders want. If it were not so, soldiers would see what the truth really is and refuse to fight, something the governments cannot afford, at least not on a mass scale.