Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[shawn001]

Says me.

And you, actually - well, says the physicists you referred to ...



In other words, the alleged Bang was not the beginning. Not in any of the scientific explanations. It is a continuation.

It's like saying that life begins when you are born. Wrong. Life takes a new name and form when you are born.

You could say "Shawn001" began at such and such a time. Just as you could say "it appears, based on microwave radiation and the red shift that the universe began about 13 billion years ago."

But the origin of Shawn001 is not your birth date. It is all life which preceded you, right back to alleged abiogenesis.

Similarly, the universe only 'began' 13 billion years ago if you define its antecedent as not being 'the universe'.

"In other words, the alleged Bang was not the beginning. Not in any of the scientific explanations. It is a continuation."

Well that is one of the big questions, perhaps the biggest. This is where you have God did it or what happened or both or give up.

"alleged Bang"

No the Bang happened and that is a picture of it. But this is a problem, its like evolution and abiogenesis, not the same thing really, although connected in theory.

The Big Bang theory is only the Universe was hot and dense it the past, around 7 trillion degree F and then rapidly inflated (another part of the theory) and continues to expand and has been cooling ever since. But a while back they found the universe to be speeding up, the space is going faster then light. Not the matter though, that gets dragged along with it, the galaxies and stars. For all intensive purposes though that was the beginning of time and space as we know it on the large scale. Then there is Quantum mechanics on the small scale and the don't match up yet. That is another big problem they are working on.

The multiverse is theoretical physics done with only math basically, but they may find ways even from the picture I showed above. That would have an imprint on it perhaps. There are some other ways as well. An infinity of universes perhaps?

 

[shawn001]

The universe itself is intelligence, how could the universe do what it does if it wasn't, we are also all born intelligent, that is until we are conditioned and programmed by our parents, education, and society.

There is a problem with that called the week anthropic principle.

 

[shawn001]

Did any of this confirm Sir Roger Penrose's proposal that leftover background microwave radiation pointed to the existence of previous universes?

No that did not pan out yet. But its still possible.

 

[psychoslice]

There is a problem with that called the week anthropic principle.

Well that may be a problem to some, but not to me.

 

[shawn001]

Says me.

And you, actually - well, says the physicists you referred to ...



In other words, the alleged Bang was not the beginning. Not in any of the scientific explanations. It is a continuation.

It's like saying that life begins when you are born. Wrong. Life takes a new name and form when you are born.

You could say "Shawn001" began at such and such a time. Just as you could say "it appears, based on microwave radiation and the red shift that the universe began about 13 billion years ago."

But the origin of Shawn001 is not your birth date. It is all life which preceded you, right back to alleged abiogenesis.

Similarly, the universe only 'began' 13 billion years ago if you define its antecedent as not being 'the universe'.

One, what is being shown actually confirms more on evolution. We are made from star dust. We have known that for a while. Your analogy is not that simple when it comes to the topic, because there is so much to it, easy to say basically but its to actually find out?

 

[shawn001]

Good point. 'The Universe' may actually be an endless cycle of 'on' and 'off' phases. In the 'on' phase, there appears to be 'Something', and in the 'off' phase, sheer Nothingness, out of which again comes Everything, the 'off' phase being pure potential, like the light potential of a light bulb just before being switched 'on'.

This maybe possible, but not like the old big crunch theory.

You should read this

The End of Everything

The End of Everything

 

[shawn001]

Well that may be a problem to some, but not to me.

It would be a problem for the Beatles. My favorite band.

 

[psychoslice]

It would be a problem for the Beatles. My favorite band.

he he, yes it probably would be, but then they would just make a song out of it, mmm, what title ?.

 

[shawn001]

Imagine? Wait...

 

[YmirGF]

The comparison is not saying they are alike in content, but only that they both share the fact of indoctrination, whether you like it or not. You see? People who are socially indoctrinated never think of themselves in that way. It's only other people or groups who are indoctrinated. We, of course, are free, aren't we?

Like the Nazis, Americans indoctrinate school children into a nationalist mindset with the final result that both go willingly to their deaths firmly believing the empty slogans and banners under which they fight for their country. Muslims do it in deep religious fervor for their deity.

You have an exceptionally jaundiced view of society, GnG. If I am reading you correctly, you are using the word indoctrination in a very general sense. Following your illustration, one could suggest that you are simply following your own indoctrination. Let me guess though, you are quite beyond this, correct... because you are seeing reality, as it is... apparently...

 

[apophenia]

"In other words, the alleged Bang was not the beginning. Not in any of the scientific explanations. It is a continuation."

Well that is one of the big questions, perhaps the biggest. This is where you have God did it or what happened or both or give up.

Not true.

This is where you admit that you have a hypothesis which is not confirmed, about a situation which you cannot wrap your head around.

"alleged Bang"

No the Bang happened and that is a picture of it. But this is a problem, its like evolution and abiogenesis, not the same thing really, although connected in theory.

That picture can be interpreted as expansion happening. And I don't have a problem with that.

But the 'beginning' of that expansion is entirely hypothetical.
You are speculating beyond the data if you say it is proof of anything.

It is no more than a current best guess.

The Big Bang theory is only the Universe was hot and dense it the past, around 7 trillion degree F and then rapidly inflated (another part of the theory) and continues to expand and has been cooling ever since. But a while back they found the universe to be speeding up, the space is going faster than light. Not the matter though, that gets dragged along with it, the galaxies and stars. For all intensive purposes [sic .. for all intents and purposes] though that was the beginning of time and space as we know it on the large scale. Then there is Quantum mechanics on the small scale and they don't match up yet. That is another big problem they are working on.

No problem with that.

Except maybe "space is going faster than light". That requires a kind of faith/imagination. Unless you have a definition of space which allows it to go.

maybe all the stuff is actually getting smaller ?

"That's not the sun going down ! It's the horizon moving up !"
- Firesign Theatre 'Everything you know is wrong'

 

[Looncall]

I am certain that Mr. Eckhart cares not one whit whether you are impressed or not.

Word salad to you, because your view is a totally conditioned one, thereby preventing you from seeing and experiencing the intelligent nature of the universe. To you, it's just a dead object of scientific observation to be dissected, analyzed, categorized, and stuffed into a jar of formaldehyde so you can sleep at nights. You and your science really believe you're going to someday figure it all out with your head, don't you? How is it that you, a supposedly intelligent entity, who is supported in every possible way by the universe, deny that very universe intelligence, yet claim it for your own, demanding evidence with Nazi like precision and efficiency for it's intelligence?

"You papers, please? No papers? Go to cell block 666. Next!"

Mr Eckhart no longer exists.

You have yet to show that the universe is the kind of thing that the word intelligent can be applied to.

"The universe is intelligence" is simply nonsensical. An object cannot be the same as a process. Not even wrong.

The nastiness of your rhetoric merely illuminates the vacuity of your position.

 

[godnotgod]

Like a fish in the ocean is both made from the ocean & swimming in it, we are made from consciousness & swimming in it
Chit Akash

Consciousness knows itself as the human cosmos
Chopra

Pseudo philosophers L Krauss & Richard Dawkins claim the universe is mind independent & [yet] insist on empirical evidence that is mind dependent
Chopra

 

[godnotgod]

You have an exceptionally jaundiced view of society, GnG. If I am reading you correctly, you are using the word indoctrination in a very general sense. Following your illustration, one could suggest that you are simply following your own indoctrination. Let me guess though, you are quite beyond this, correct... because you are seeing reality, as it is... apparently...

Being awake does give one an advantage over those who are asleep who blindly follow the dictates of their indoctrination. The former is freedom, allowing choice; the latter enslavement.

One can be indoctrinated overtly or very subtly, but both are indoctrination. American Christians will fight to the death every bit as much as a Muslim extremist.

So do you allow what you call 'conditioning shlock' to be real, or not?

 

[godnotgod]

Mr Eckhart no longer exists.

You have yet to show that the universe is the kind of thing that the word intelligent can be applied to.

"The universe is intelligence" is simply nonsensical. An object cannot be the same as a process. Not even wrong.

Correction: Were Eckhart alive, what would he care about your being impressed? What does anyone care about it?

The universe is not an object of your observation. That is what is nonsensical. The discriminating mind has created an artificial division called 'subject/object' and then proceeds to interpret the world based on that illusion. It is like saying that the ocean is one thing, and waves another, when both ocean and wave are made of the same substance: water. You and the universe are likewise of the same substance: consciousness. But because of the egoic illusory split it creates as subject/object, it likes to see only itself as conscious in an dead world that it can then manipulate for its own gratification. This view of the universe is called 'The Ceramic View' which is inherited from Christianity, in which a creator god is seen as a potter making an artifact, the pot. Reason came along and dismissed God as unnecessary, and transformed the Ceramic View into The Fully Automatic Universe. But both views retain the idea of a dead universe as a consequence of an arbitrary subject/object mental construct. When this artificial construct is set aside, one then sees the universe as it actually is: conscious and intelligent, just as we are conscious and intelligent. The only thing that prevents one from seeing it this way is the ego.

 

[YmirGF]

Being awake does give one an advantage over those who are asleep who blindly follow the dictates of their indoctrination. The former is freedom, allowing choice; the latter enslavement.

In theory, being awake does give one certain advantages over the sleeping, but in all seriousness, only the mean spirited individual would take advantage of those who are fast asleep.

One can be indoctrinated overtly or very subtly, but both are indoctrination. American Christians will fight to the death every bit as much as a Muslim extremist.

So, with your finger on the pulse of the Infinite Awareness of Absolute Reality, the best you can do is cite the most extreme forms of indoctrination in order to bolster your amusing thinking of a more general indoctrination? I know you don't have much to work with in the muddle of ideas, but surely you could approach this in a more lucid fashion than you have done so far.

So do you allow what you call 'conditioning shlock' to be real, or not?

I very much doubt that I would have referred to your amusing notions as "conditioning shlock" had I thought the idea had some merit. What merit it may contain is barely worth noting. You are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

 

[godnotgod]

In theory, being awake does give one certain advantages over the sleeping, but in all seriousness, only the mean spirited individual would take advantage of those who are fast asleep.

So, with your finger on the pulse of the Infinite Awareness of Absolute Reality, the best you can do is cite the most extreme forms of indoctrination in order to bolster your amusing thinking of a more general indoctrination? I know you don't have much to work with in the muddle of ideas, but surely you could approach this in a more lucid fashion than you have done so far.


I very much doubt that I would have referred to your amusing notions as "conditioning shlock" had I thought the idea had some merit. What merit it may contain is barely worth noting. You are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

You love to exaggerate and twist everything I say, don't you?

If the blind are walking over a precipice to their deaths, while you can see, is it taking advantage of their condition or being mean spirited simply because you avoid the precipice? Stop being ridiculous!

I cited extreme examples simply because they are the most obvious and readily seen for what they are.

What you call 'shlock' is real, I am afraid. You can find descriptions of mental conditioning and indoctrination in any good sociology textbook. You're just in denial, that's all, or just playing games about something you know to be all too real. The history of the world is filled with examples of incidents and events executed by those under the influence of their particular indoctrination. You just don't like the implications of the word. Most people in the world today are pursuing the addictive paths of Power, Sensation, and/or Security, all driven by their being asleep and having been indoctrinated to one degree or another. Only spiritual awakening can transform this conditioned state of awareness into that of spiritual freedom.

 

[YmirGF]

You just don't like the implications of the word. Most people in the world today are pursuing the addictive paths of Power, Sensation, and/or Security, all driven by their being asleep and having been indoctrinated to one degree or another.

I'm pretty confident saying that you did not get any of the above from a primer on Sociology. Be honest. Oh, and now you have neutered this to "one degree or another". Good fricken grief.

Only spiritual awakening can transform this conditioned state of awareness into that of spiritual freedom.

And yet, to one who is a good deal more awake than is the norm, your words ring so very hollow.

I'm more inclined to work through the illusion rather than rip it aside and point my finger at a moon that other human animals cannot see. It's a much slower process, admittedly, but it's not like I don't have ages to accomplish my goal. I'm in no hurry to wake up the sleeping. I'd rather them wake up on their own, in their own time, in their own way - to see the illusion of Oneness and deal with it as they will.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm pretty confident saying that you did not get any of the above from a primer on Sociology. Be honest. Oh, and now you have neutered this to "one degree or another". Good fricken grief.
And yet, to one who is a good deal more awake than is the norm, your words ring so very hollow.

I'm more inclined to work through the illusion rather than rip it aside and point my finger at a moon that other human animals cannot see. It's a much slower process, admittedly, but it's not like I don't have ages to accomplish my goal. I'm in no hurry to wake up the sleeping. I'd rather them wake up on their own, in their own time, in their own way - to see the illusion of Oneness and deal with it as they will.

You want to muck around and be entertained. I'd rather cut to the heart of the matter:

'Nothing we see or hear is perfect, but there, in the midst of all the imperfection, lies Perfect Reality'
Shunryu Suzuki, founder, SF Zen Center

 

[godnotgod]

"For those who stubbornly seek freedom around the world, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the propaganda system to which we are subjected and in which all too often we serve as unwilling or unwitting instruments."
Noam Chomsky