Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[shawn001]

Just pointing out there is no NO-Thing.

However with QM, yes

Yes, but you see, you begin with the premise that consciousness is dependent upon the brain, in the same manner that tv signals come from the tv set. They don't. How can the material brain create non-material consciousness? This is the hard question in neuroscience at the moment, something it has not yet been able to answer.

Higher Consciousness is not meditation, although meditation is conducive to the state of Higher Consciousness. To enter into meditation is to enter into the pathway of the intuitive mind, and it is the intuitive mind that is the pathway to Higher Consciousness.

"premise that consciousness is dependent upon the brain"

Its not a premise its a fact.

"same manner that tv signals come from the tv set"

This is a bad analogy. Your not getting signals beamed into your brain from somewhere else that allows consciousness. You can also alter consciousness in many ways and it can be damaged like brain damage and chances all the time. Not to mention you need a nervous system,and its part of the central nervous system.

Look at it this way like a computer analogy. The brain is the hardware and the workings of the brain is the software programs that creates consciousness and the computer is plugged into electricity. In the case of the brain is chemical and electrical signals and neurons communicating to each other.

You didn't answer the question. Please try to answer the question.

show me anywhere this states exists

"higher consciousness" without biological processes.

So explain the biological processes?

also the "intuitive mind" which really means Intuition and we know the parts of the brain that play a role in it, as well as what I mentioned before there is a second brain in the gut that helps shape feelings and is connected to, the second brain and although its not a brain it capable and does influence our Intuition. As well as the brain.

 

[shawn001]

Again, this is conditioned mind; Higher Consciousness is unconditioned awakened consciousness.

"Again, this is conditioned mind; Higher Consciousness is unconditioned awakened consciousness."

You can't back any of this up. Your just throwing your thoughts and beliefs out. All your saying is philosophy.

Your not a neurosciencetist and either am I , although I have been very interteted in it for many years. The Father of Neuroscience has something to say about it all though.

The Father Of Cognitive Neuroscience Shares His Conclusions

Everything begins and ends with the brain. Mike Gazzaniga shares his thoughts on our mental life.


Breaking Down Cognitive Neuroscience | Through the Wormhole | Discovery Science

 

[shawn001]

No 'God Spot' In Brain, Spirituality Linked To Right Parietal Lobe


No 'God Spot' In Brain, Spirituality Linked To Right Parietal Lobe

 

[shawn001]

They 'exist' against the background of Nothingness. You say they are constantly being created and destroyed, but perhaps it is more that they are constantly being manifested and then not-manifested as 'real'. If they are virtual, they are not actually real, but only behave, for all practical purposes, as real, so 'real', in fact, that their behavior can be so predicted, as you describe.

"They 'exist' against the background of Nothingness."

Wrong.

 

[shawn001]

You are also going to find your self having some serious problems with nothingness and then consciousness is the universe or any higher god or whatever or even Tao.

 

[godnotgod]

Just pointing out there is no NO-Thing.

However with QM, yes

If there is nothing, how is it that you determine that something called 'virtual particles' exist? You determine that 'things' exist in the universe by your being able to observe them against the background of the nothingness of space.

"premise that consciousness is dependent upon the brain"

Its not a premise its a fact.

Not. It's called Emergent Theory, which does not even qualify as a scientific theory. It is nothing more than hypothesis at this point.

"same manner that tv signals come from the tv set"

This is a bad analogy. Your not getting signals beamed into your brain from somewhere else that allows consciousness. You can also alter consciousness in many ways and it can be damaged like brain damage and chances all the time. Not to mention you need a nervous system,and its part of the central nervous system.

The brain does not allow consciousness; consciousness allows the brain. Maybe you can damage the physical brain, but you can never damage consciousness. 'Altered consciousenss' is conditioned consciousness, or 'mind'. Higher Consciousness is not mind. Mind comes from consciousness. There is no scientific proof that consciousness is a creation of the brain. That is purely an assumption.

Look at it this way like a computer analogy. The brain is the hardware and the workings of the brain is the software programs that creates consciousness and the computer is plugged into electricity. In the case of the brain is chemical and electrical signals and neurons communicating to each other.

Saying that software creates consciousness does not make it fact. Show how the material brain creates software that creates non-material consciousness. It's called 'upward causation'. Not gonna happen.

Look at it this way: consciousness has always existed, and is responsible for the manifested universe, including beings with brains, and then relegates certain background functions to the brain so that it can then focus on the immediate present. If consciousness had to deal up front all the time with all the various functions of the body, they would get in the way of what consciousness is all about: happiness. It's udders would be all in a bunch.

We have scientific proof that brains are capable of non-local communication, here:

You didn't answer the question. Please try to answer the question.

show me anywhere this states exists

"higher consciousness" without biological processes.

So explain the biological processes?

Higher Consciousness is an experience beyond that of our ordinary conditioned mentality. You cannot just think it into an experience as it is beyond thought. A shift must occur away from the discriminating mind toward Higher Consciousness. That this is real is not shown to be a function of the material brain or of biology. IOW, consciousness is a reality outside of the brain and of biology.

also the "intuitive mind" which really means Intuition and we know the parts of the brain that play a role in it, as well as what I mentioned before there is a second brain in the gut that helps shape feelings and is connected to, the second brain and although its not a brain it capable and does influence our Intuition. As well as the brain.

Yes, its called the hara:

With the body-mind’s equilibrium centered in the hara, gradually a seat of consciousness, a focus of vital energy, is established there which influences the entire organism.

That consciousness is by no means confined to the brain is shown by Lama Govinda, who writes as follows: “While, according to Western conceptions, the brain is the exclusive seat of consciousness, yogic experience shows that our brain-consciousness is only one among a number of possible forms of consciousness, and that these, according to their function and nature, can be localized or centered in various organs of the body. These ‘organs,’ which collect, transform, and distribute the forces flowing through them, are called cakras, or centers of force. From them radiate secondary streams of psychic force, comparable to the spokes of a wheel, the ribs of an umbrella, or the petals of a lotus. In other words, these cakras are the points in which psychic forces and bodily functions merge into each other or penetrate each other. They are the focal points in which cosmic and psychic energies crystallize into bodily qualities, and in which bodily qualities are dissolved or transmuted again into psychic forces.

With the mind in the hara, narrow and egocentric thinking is superseded by a broadness of outlook and a magnanimity of spirit. This is because thinking from the vital hara center, being free of mediation by the limited discursive intellect, is spontaneous and all embracing. Perception from the hara tends toward integration and unity rather than division and fragmentation. In short, it is thinking which sees things steadily and whole.

The Hara: Seat of Enlightenment

 

[godnotgod]

"They 'exist' against the background of Nothingness."

Wrong.

So what are they seen against?

 

[godnotgod]

You are also going to find your self having some serious problems with nothingness and then consciousness is the universe or any higher god or whatever or even Tao.

No one is saying anything about any god.

Being Nothingness, how can there be any problems whatsoever? The 'problem', or paradox, is only in your mind, due to the fact that the discriminating mind forms concepts about nature and then attempts to superimpose them onto nature. The result is paradox, as one cannot stuff nature into any conceptual framework.

 

[godnotgod]

Everything begins and ends with the brain. Mike Gazzaniga shares his thoughts on our mental life.

Western narrow minded, reductionist materialist sterile Bull****, coming from the brain itself.

 

[shawn001]

If there is nothing, how is it that you determine that something called 'virtual particles' exist? You determine that 'things' exist in the universe by your being able to observe them against the background of the nothingness of space.



Not. It's called Emergent Theory, which does not even qualify as a scientific theory. It is nothing more than hypothesis at this point.



The brain does not allow consciousness; consciousness allows the brain. Maybe you can damage the physical brain, but you can never damage consciousness. 'Altered consciousenss' is conditioned consciousness, or 'mind'. Higher Consciousness is not mind. Mind comes from consciousness. There is no scientific proof that consciousness is a creation of the brain. That is purely an assumption.



Saying that software creates consciousness does not make it fact. Show how the material brain creates software that creates non-material consciousness. It's called 'upward causation'. Not gonna happen.

Look at it this way: consciousness has always existed, and is responsible for the manifested universe, including beings with brains, and then relegates certain background functions to the brain so that it can then focus on the immediate present. If consciousness had to deal up front all the time with all the various functions of the body, they would get in the way of what consciousness is all about: happiness. It's udders would be all in a bunch.

We have scientific proof that brains are capable of non-local communication, here:

Higher Consciousness is an experience beyond that of our ordinary conditioned mentality. You cannot just think it into an experience as it is beyond thought. A shift must occur away from the discriminating mind toward Higher Consciousness. That this is real is not shown to be a function of the material brain or of biology. IOW, consciousness is a reality outside of the brain and of biology.



Yes, its called the hara:

With the body-mind’s equilibrium centered in the hara, gradually a seat of consciousness, a focus of vital energy, is established there which influences the entire organism.

That consciousness is by no means confined to the brain is shown by Lama Govinda, who writes as follows: “While, according to Western conceptions, the brain is the exclusive seat of consciousness, yogic experience shows that our brain-consciousness is only one among a number of possible forms of consciousness, and that these, according to their function and nature, can be localized or centered in various organs of the body. These ‘organs,’ which collect, transform, and distribute the forces flowing through them, are called cakras, or centers of force. From them radiate secondary streams of psychic force, comparable to the spokes of a wheel, the ribs of an umbrella, or the petals of a lotus. In other words, these cakras are the points in which psychic forces and bodily functions merge into each other or penetrate each other. They are the focal points in which cosmic and psychic energies crystallize into bodily qualities, and in which bodily qualities are dissolved or transmuted again into psychic forces.

With the mind in the hara, narrow and egocentric thinking is superseded by a broadness of outlook and a magnanimity of spirit. This is because thinking from the vital hara center, being free of mediation by the limited discursive intellect, is spontaneous and all embracing. Perception from the hara tends toward integration and unity rather than division and fragmentation. In short, it is thinking which sees things steadily and whole.

The Hara: Seat of Enlightenment

I only have time at the moment for this one, which also answers your other post. But

"the background of the nothingness of space." is where you have it wrong first off. There is no NO-Thing once again. You might also want to pay close attension to this "It actually takes energy to clear out space and make a true 'empty' vacuum." when they discuss it.


Empty Space is NOT Empty

 

[godnotgod]

Buddha's Brain: Neuroplasticity and Meditation

from your own source, above:

'The findings from studies in this unusual sample as well as related research efforts, suggest that, over the course of meditating for tens of thousands of hours, the long-term practitioners had actually altered the structure and function of their brains.'

I am aware of these studies, which are indicative of consciousness growing the brain, and not the other way around, as we usually think is the case. Specifically, these studies show that long term meditators have actually grown thicker cerebral cortexes than are possessed by non-meditators.

 

[shawn001]

Western narrow minded, reductionist materialist sterile Bull****, coming from the brain itself.

Coming from the Father of Neuroscience studying the brain and not from someone who doesn't at all, like yourself. I think his knowledge about the brain transcends yours by a long shot. And from the guy who discovered "that the right hemisphere of the brain, seen above, operates independently from the left."


Trying to Be Less Stupid: The Hard Work of Brain Science
A renowned neuroscientist discusses where the next big breakthroughs in understanding the brain will come from.

Trying to Be Less Stupid: The Hard Work of Brain Science

 

[godnotgod]

I only have time at the moment for this one, which also answers your other post. But

"the background of the nothingness of space." is where you have it wrong first off. There is no NO-Thing once again. You might also want to pay close attension to this "It actually takes energy to clear out space and make a true 'empty' vacuum." when they discuss it.


Empty Space is NOT Empty

Correction: since there is Nothing, there is no space, no vacuum....nothing. Virtual particles are nothing, and are determined to be such against the background of this Nothingness. Otherwise it could not be determined that they are what they are. This Nothingness I refer to is pure consciousness.

You see the hedge against the hills;
you see the hills against the sky;
but you see the sky against consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

Coming from the Father of Neuroscience studying the brain and not from someone who doesn't at all, like yourself. I think his knowledge about the brain transcends yours by a long shot. And from the guy who discovered "that the right hemisphere of the brain, seen above, operates independently from the left."


Trying to Be Less Stupid: The Hard Work of Brain Science
A renowned neuroscientist discusses where the next big breakthroughs in understanding the brain will come from.

Trying to Be Less Stupid: The Hard Work of Brain Science

You don't get it, and are hung up on your attachment to the brain as the center of the universe. It's nothing more than a persistent over bloated Western egotistic notion. Consciousness does not come from the brain; the brain comes from consciousness. It only appears that the brain creates consciousness. If that is so, show how the material brain creates non material consciousness?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is not a higher state, it6 is a clearer state, as if the fog has risen and the mirror cleaned.

Yes, though this has nothing whatsoever to do with speculations about "cosmic consciousness" or similar new-age nonsense.

 

[godnotgod]

show me anywhere this states exists

"higher consciousness" without biological processes.

Meditation is a heightened state of focus. A lot is known about it and what is going on in the brain and how it effects the brain and without the brain you can't meditate. . It also creates Alpha Brain wave activity. The heightened state of focus helps relieve anxiety and stress, which also gives you more relaxed at one with the world feelings. All biological.

Yes, but all of this is achieved by focusing attention on the hara*, just below the navel. It is the hara that is the seat of consciousness in the body, not the brain. Beyond this, when the (kundalini) energy dormant at the base of the spine is awakened, it travels upwards along the spinal chord and illumines the brain, supercharging it, realizing the full potential of the brain via transformation. This transformation is called 'Enlightenment'.

*or the focus can be on the breath.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No 'God Spot' In Brain, Spirituality Linked To Right Parietal Lobe

Interesting, thanks for posting.

 

[godnotgod]

"Again, this is conditioned mind; Higher Consciousness is unconditioned awakened consciousness."

You can't back any of this up. Your just throwing your thoughts and beliefs out. All your saying is philosophy.

Your not a neurosciencetist and either am I , although I have been very interteted in it for many years. The Father of Neuroscience has something to say about it all though.

Wrong. It is NOT philosophy. It is direct experience, without thought. Philosophy requires thought, so HC cannot be philosophy. You don't see conditioned mind because science itself is conditioned mentality, which is a highly controlled and sculpted mental construct by which you are trying to interpret the information you get from the world. That means it is secondarily removed from its source.

When you awaken from dream sleep, you KNOW you have done so by virtue of the awakened state. But you have only awakened into another dream state, which is that of Identification, and which tells you that your state is real, when, in fact, it is just a higher state of dreaming. Upon awakening from that dream, you will know its true nature as illusory. That higher state is not a philosophical discussion, but a real experience. It is not a belief, concept, conjecture, or model of reality. It is the direct realization of reality itself.

Once again, the center of consciousness is not in the brain. Neuroscience, while useful for brain issues related to the body, has no understanding of higher consciousness.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

What is required for delusion to be the case?

Is there someone, ie; a self; an identity, who is delusional, or is there simply delusion itself?

When you are asleep, dreaming all sorts of wild fantasies, they seem perfectly real to you. How do you know you were only dreaming?

Can you describe what you think the nature of the mind actually is?

The situation is not that 'We are all delusional except the people like you'; instead, it is that everyone is already enlightened, but most fail to realize the fact, just as most, if not all fish do not realize they are already in the sea.

First off we need to make some distinctions. First there is no "delusion itself". There are "delusions" and there is a state that can be described as "delusional" but there is no substance called "delusion". So either people have the wrong idea about reality or they don't.

As far as dreaming goes its because I can witness other people dreaming. We have an understanding of dreams. This higher conciousness has no such thing.

The nature of the mind is an open ended question. What exactly do you want to know?

 

[Aupmanyav]

With difficulty, they abandoned God. Now they latch on to 'higher consciousness'.