Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

I myself don't have beliefs,

I think you do. What you said in your preceding post ( #2817 ) was a belief.

It's not a criticism, I mean we all have beliefs and assumptions. The debate is about how valid they are, and whether they are based on something tangible or just on wishful thinking.

I do see a lot of clutching at metaphysical straws. Human life is brief, challenging and uncertain, and it seems people have a strong need for something comforting to believe in. That's understandable, but let's at least be honest about why people have the beliefs they do.

 

[Thief]

With difficulty, they abandoned God. Now they latch on to 'higher consciousness'.

Ironic.
Guess what happens when we die?

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is very linear, and ignores that everything arises interdependently and simultaneously. Why not just cut to the chase and say: 'Because there is Nothing, there is Everything' ?, the potential for Everything already being inherently complete in Nothing, just as light potential is already inherently complete in the light bulb, the switch, and a source of power.

That is what I meant. Wrote in length to make it easier for those who are slow on the uptake. You are not.

Ironic. Guess what happens when we die?

Does that require any guess? The molecules disperse and form new associations.

 

[Thief]

This is very linear, and ignores that everything arises interdependently and simultaneously. .

Everything is linear.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Everything linear and no mysteries. Easy to understand.

Clearly there is mass, and I think that the introduction of quantum mechanics into this discussion is a major red herring.

And why would that be? That being closer to reality (as far as we know now).

 

[Thief]

Does that require any guess? The molecules disperse and form new associations.

Nope....it's a sure thing.
I believe in a Higher Power......and we as creation will be 'looked' at.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Where is creation? It is an illusion. It may be the power of 'nothing', the power of 'dao', of 'ritam', the way it is.

 

[Thief]

Where is creation? It is an illusion. It may be the power of 'nothing', the power of 'dao', of 'ritam', the way it is.

Well....I kina thought it was like....
feeding several thousand with no apparent provisions....
restoring flesh at a moments notice....
walking on water....
bring the dead back to life....

Not that I need miracles to believe in God.

but a lot of people do
and non-believers seem to insist it must happen for them....

 

[Aupmanyav]

We know that does not happen. No problem with those who believe. It is a free world. There are a billion in Hinduism who believe that the Shiva/Ganesha idols drank milk.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And why would that be? That being closer to reality (as far as we know now).

It's very far removed from our day-to-day reality, and the implications of quantum mechanics are still poorly understood. As I think I've observed before, when things like this are still poorly understood there is scope for people to jump in with all sorts of speculations and wacky theories. It a variation on the "God of the gaps" game really.

It's fun to speculate, but let's not pretend any of us really knows. It's OK to have beliefs, but let's not claim that science supports them when it clearly doesn't.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's fun to speculate, but let's not pretend any of us really knows. It's OK to have beliefs, but let's not claim that science supports them when it clearly doesn't.

It is not just fun but a serious question. Quantum mechanics cannot be ignored, though I understand tht we cannot apply it everywhere, just as in case of Godel too cannot be applied everywhere. I take even my Brahman belief only as provisional. If science tells us something else, I would modify/change my views.

Spiny, I have a lower back ache today. Had to tell somebody.

 

[YmirGF]

I think you do. What you said in your preceding post ( #2817 ) was a belief.

It's not a criticism, I mean we all have beliefs and assumptions. The debate is about how valid they are, and whether they are based on something tangible or just on wishful thinking.

I do see a lot of clutching at metaphysical straws. Human life is brief, challenging and uncertain, and it seems people have a strong need for something comforting to believe in. That's understandable, but let's at least be honest about why people have the beliefs they do.

I agree. Much of what we are reading here is about how peoples beliefs about reality colour their perception of reality. There is very little in the way of actual content. For example, how people can achieve this wonderful state described is simply not explained and rarely touched on. My guess is that the various writers don't actually have a clue about how to disseminate their brilliant thinking, to make their message understandable.

It's all easy to say that one has no beliefs, but that is not particularly realistic or honest. In my view, it simply underscores that the person is not even attempting to be serious.

It's very far removed from our day-to-day reality, and the implications of quantum mechanics are still poorly understood. As I think I've observed before, when things like this are still poorly understood there is scope for people to jump in with all sorts of speculations and wacky theories. It a variation on the "God of the gaps" game really.

It's fun to speculate, but let's not pretend any of us really knows. It's OK to have beliefs, but let's not claim that science supports them when it clearly doesn't.

I would have no issue with any tiny human animals blathering on about what they believe, it's only when they make definitive statements about how things are that dissolves whatever credibility they ever had. Failure to underscore the speculative nature of their findings is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy and should never be confused with inherent wisdom.

 

[godnotgod]

....the speculative nature of their findings... should never be confused with inherent wisdom.

You're just saying the same thing I am. Here, you recognize a higher state of consciousness. Does that mean it is without beliefs, as the 'speculative findings' would be?

 

[godnotgod]

Well....I kina thought it was like....
feeding several thousand with no apparent provisions....
restoring flesh at a moments notice....
walking on water....
bring the dead back to life....

Not that I need miracles to believe in God.

but a lot of people do
and non-believers seem to insist it must happen for them....

It's actually more like peeling the potatoes, sweeping the floor, or washing the dishes.

 

[godnotgod]

Everything is linear.

Everything appears linear to you because you are looking at only a slice, and failing to see the whole. Why is it that you deny time yet insist on linearity? Don't you realize that linearity is time dependent? There is no linear. Everything is arising and subsiding interdependently, all at once, as a singularity, now.

 

[godnotgod]

That is what I meant. Wrote in length to make it easier for those who are slow on the uptake. You are not.

But it's misleading. Things don't occur linearly: first this, then this, then this, etc....they occur simultaneously in this singular present, as a flower unfolding. The universe is unfolding as a singularity all at once, now. We just superimpose the concept of Time and Space over this event which makes it appear linear, which creates the illusion of the event spread out linearly from past to present to future.

 

[godnotgod]

For example, how people can achieve this wonderful state described is simply not explained and rarely touched on.

There is no one who can achieve it. It is already present and complete. It's a matter of seeing what is.

My guess is that the various writers don't actually have a clue about how to disseminate their brilliant thinking, to make their message understandable.

We've been doing it all along, but you keep looking for an 'explanation', as if there is something to 'figure out'. You continue to attack the pointing finger instead of looking at the moon.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Quantum mechanics cannot be ignored, though I understand tht we cannot apply it everywhere, just as in case of Godel too cannot be applied everywhere.

It's really difficult to understand the full implications of quantum mechanics, it's still a young science. In any case I can't take seriously the pseudo-science approach in this thread.

 

[godnotgod]

The universe is its own intelligence, of course, just look at the way it expresses itself, its a marvel, its all consciousness in its own making.

That should be obvious to anyone, but most are conditioned to see the world as an object of observation and dissection, and assume a brain is a necessity for it to be intelligent, and so see the universe as mechanical, materialistic, and clock-like. Children see immediately how wonderful and alive nature is, but we lose this over time via our social indoctrination and education, which is mostly based on reason, logic, and analysis, all of which see things as objects apart from ourselves, when, in reality, we ourselves are what the universe is.

 

[godnotgod]

With difficulty, they abandoned God. Now they latch on to 'higher consciousness'.

No, it's not quite like that. They abandoned the idea of God in favor of the experience of Higher Consciousness. Belief in God is to cling; the spiritual experience is to let go.

Belief clings;
Faith lets go.