Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Thief]

Everything appears linear to you because you are looking at only a slice, and failing to see the whole. Why is it that you deny time yet insist on linearity? Don't you realize that linearity is time dependent? There is no linear. Everything is arising and subsiding interdependently, all at once, as a singularity, now.

Time is not a force or a substance.

Movement....is very real....and goes one way.

 

[godnotgod]

Time is not a force or a substance.

Movement....is very real....and goes one way.

For it to go 'one way' there must be time.

1st observer: 'the flag is moving'
2nd observer: 'the wind is moving'
3rd observer: 'wrong! both flag and wind are moving!'
passerby: 'all wrong! your minds are moving!'

Zen source

 

[Thief]

Now we must assume....incorrectly....that Zen treats time AS a force or substance.

 

[godnotgod]

Now we must assume....incorrectly....that Zen treats time AS a force or substance.

No! Zen is saying that movement is an illusion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But it's misleading. Things don't occur linearly: first this, then this, then this, etc....they occur simultaneously in this singular present, as a flower unfolding. The universe is unfolding as a singularity all at once, now. We just superimpose the concept of Time and Space over this event which makes it appear linear, which creates the illusion of the event spread out linearly from past to present to future.

I think that is not correct. It took time for things to happen (as per what we know today).

 

[Thief]

No! Zen is saying that movement is an illusion.

Now you have gone....moved.....toooooooo far!

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's really difficult to understand the full implications of quantum mechanics, it's still a young science. In any case I can't take seriously the pseudo-science approach in this thread.

I think the topic itself is pseudo-scientific.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, it's not quite like that. They abandoned the idea of God in favor of the experience of Higher Consciousness. Belief in God is to cling; the spiritual experience is to let go.
Belief clings;
Faith lets go.

Let go the clinging to the idea of Higher Consciousness and then see. And then, tell us
what you saw.

 

[godnotgod]

I think that is not correct. It took time for things to happen (as per what we know today).

But all things that occurred did so in the present, as they always do. Events cannot occur in the past or in some future. What we call 'the past' is only a set of traces of what occurred in the present. We have been indoctrinated to assume that past events lead up to the present, but that is not so. It is the present that creates the past. The dead past cannot create the present because it is no longer active.

The entire universe, complete in all its aspects, was contained in the singularity. It did not progress linearly, but unfolded from the inside out, but not in time, because it is an event that is going on now, as it has always been going on now. Your chart is just a flat picture, a slice, of what occurred, and as such, is a misrepresentation.

Science tries to tell us that space-time was created at the moment of inception of the BB. But what was the condition just prior to the creation of space-time, or is the idea that something called 'space-time' only conceptual, and therefore, illusory? IOW, the BB was not an event in time and space, as time and space were created just after the event, but an event in timeless, spaceless CONSCIOUSNESS.

 

[godnotgod]

I think the topic itself is pseudo-scientific.

LOL, science itself is pseudo-realistic, because its nature is altered consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

Let go the clinging to the idea of Higher Consciousness and then see. And then, tell us
what you saw.

I see that the spirituality of higher consciousness is in peeling the potatoes.

 

[godnotgod]

Now you have gone....moved.....toooooooo far!

There is no movement of any sort whatsoever, nor anyone or anything that moves. There is only absolute stillness, as it has always been, in this timeless eternal Present Moment. There is only the divine nature, playing and pretending to be Everything, and acting out each part simultaneously. Thief and GNG do not exist. They are only two of countless masks the divine nature is currently wearing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What we call 'the past' is only a set of traces of what occurred in the present.

There is no present, only past or future. Present is 10 raised to power -43 Secs. (Plancks Time). It is too fleeting to be noticed.

I see that the spirituality of higher consciousness is in peeling the potatoes.

Did you do that today morning?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Did you do that today morning?

"First there is a potato, then there is no potato, then there is...."

 

[godnotgod]

There is no present, only past or future. Present is 10 raised to power -43 Secs. (Plancks Time). It is too fleeting to be noticed.

No, I am not referring to the fleeting present moment that is the tick of the clock. Remove the clock; remove time. What is left is this still, timeless present.

The clock is just an arbitrary method of dividing up the One Present Moment into increments to satisfy the conceptual mind, when no such divisions exist in reality.

Did you do that today morning?

Not today, but I did sweep the floor and wash the dishes. Spirituality of higher consciousness is present in all ordinary activities of daily life. IOW, the Ordinary and the Miraculous are one and the same. Most of us only see the Ordinary, as our consciousness has been altered to put us to sleep, and we fail to see the Miraculous, thinking it is somewhere else other than here, now. Hence, the Seeker.

'Before Enlightenment, peeling the potatoes;
After Enlightenment, peeling the potatoes'

(modified my GNG for modern tastes)

“Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes.”

― Alan W. Watts

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not today, but I did sweep the floor and wash the dishes.

That too is OK. I will give you a pass.

 

[godnotgod]

That too is OK. I will give you a pass.

Thank you! Namaste! Ever conscious Self!

 

[Thief]

"First there is a potato, then there is no potato, then there is...."

FRENCH FRIES!!!!

 

[Thief]

There is no movement of any sort whatsoever, nor anyone or anything that moves. There is only absolute stillness, as it has always been.... .

So much for that oncoming wave salad you keep preaching....

but you did use the word.... timeless.....

maybe there is a glimmer of hope in that nothingness you claim to be.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

FRENCH FRIES!!!!

We call them "chips". Nuffink like a nice portion of cod and chips in newspaper wiv a nice pickled onion.