Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[shawn001]

You also can't close your eyes and picture NO-THING.

 

[psychoslice]

That's a good way to be, it means having an open mind, allowing for possibilities. Too often people get attached to a belief system, it means their thinking becomes very rigid and their view of the world becomes very narrow.

Oh thanks, I thought you were going to tear me apart lol.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I knew the bang wasn't an explosion for one. You didn't seem to know that fact.

Unfortunately this thread is full of pseudo-science.

 

[shawn001]

Unfortunately this thread is full of pseudo-science.

It sure is an some of its doesn't even make it to pseudo-science. LOL

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Oh thanks, I thought you were going to tear me apart lol.

Not at all! Like I said we all have beliefs and assumptions, hopefully they develop over time as we understand things better.

A question I often ask myself is "Truth or comfort?". In other words, are the assumptions I'm making based on a search for truth, or on a need for comforting beliefs?

 

[shawn001]

Oh thanks, I thought you were going to tear me apart lol.

Beliefs though are different then facts or scientific theories, although some of those can and have changed as well and some not likely to ever change, the Earth orbiting the sun. I think most can agree on that one.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It sure is an some of its doesn't even make it to pseudo-science. LOL

Proto-pseudo-science?

Pseudo-pseudo-science?

 

[psychoslice]

Not at all! Like I said we all have beliefs and assumptions, hopefully they develop over time as we understand things better.

A question I often ask myself is "Truth or comfort?". In other words, are the assumptions I'm making based on a search for truth, or on a need for comforting beliefs?

Yes I see, that's interesting, I feel that the latter is more likely.

 

[shawn001]

This is worth checking out in what you guys are saying.

Special report: Living in denial - New Scientist

 

[shawn001]

Proto-pseudo-science?

Pseudo-pseudo-science?

Some of it figments of the imagination!

 

[shawn001]

Imagination I believe is one of the greatest things of the brain, but it can also get away from some.

 

[godnotgod]

I knew for one the Bang wasn't an explosion.

I knew the bang wasn't an explosion for one. You didn't seem to know that fact.

I did. It was just a figure of speech, but you decided to take it literally.

 

[shawn001]

I did. It was just a figure of speech, but you decided to take it literally.

Ah, like you did to me when I did the same thing with evolution? On this were good then.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Imagination I believe is one of the greatest things of the brain, but it can also get away from some.

Yes, a problem occurs when people confuse the imagined with the real.

 

[Tiapan]

Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

No!
It is self organising bottom up system.
Little things cluster and grow into bigger more complex things over time, lots of time

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think the original premise of the thread was a variation on intelligent design, maybe an argument for pantheism.

I'm really not sure what the point of it is now though.

 

[godnotgod]

Wrong and because you don't think so or know doesn't change the fact.

Scientific American.

"
Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence? Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics?"

"
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, provides this answer.

Virtual particles are indeed real particles. Quantum theory predicts that every particle spends some time as a combination of other particles in all possible ways. These predictions are very well understood and tested.

Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence? Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics? - Scientific American

One more Time, there is no NO-THING in physics or in our universe.

That article is dated from 2006. More recent discoveries show that virtual particles are created by fluctuations in the Quantum field and are not real:

"...in quantum field theory, quantum fluctuations are sometimes called, or attributed to, the “appearance and disappearance of two (or more) `virtual particles‘ “. This technical bit of jargon is unfortunate, as these things (whatever we choose to call them) are certainly not particles — for instance, they don’t have a definite mass — and also, more technically, because the notion of “a virtual particle” is only precisely defined in the presence of relatively weak forces."

August 29, 2013

Quantum Fluctuations and Their Energy | Of Particular Significance

...and from a 2008 article in New Scientist:

"The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists, it will mean all reality is virtual."

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations - physics-math - 20 November 2008 - New Scientist

One more time: Nothingness is not in physics or in the universe; the universe comes out of Nothing. Otherwise explain the age old problem of the origin of original matter. Neither religion nor science have been adequately able to account for it. But mysticism does: it's an illusion, and that seems to be in the process of being confirmed by science itself.

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

― Albert Einstein

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck

 

[godnotgod]

Imagination I believe is one of the greatest things of the brain, but it can also get away from some.

So can Reason, to a great degree. It has been used, along with religious beliefs, to execute horrendous crimes against humanity, the most blatant examples being the Inquisition and the Holocaust.

 

[godnotgod]

No!
It is self organising bottom up system.
Little things cluster and grow into bigger more complex things over time, lots of time

So how does non-material consciousness arise from 'material' atoms, atoms which we now know to over 99.9999.....% empty space, and whose mass recent discoveries are showing is created by fluctuations in the Quantum field as virtual particles?

 

[shawn001]

That article is dated from 2006. More recent discoveries show that virtual particles are created by fluctuations in the Quantum field and are not real:

"...in quantum field theory, quantum fluctuations are sometimes called, or attributed to, the “appearance and disappearance of two (or more) `virtual particles‘ “. This technical bit of jargon is unfortunate, as these things (whatever we choose to call them) are certainly not particles — for instance, they don’t have a definite mass — and also, more technically, because the notion of “a virtual particle” is only precisely defined in the presence of relatively weak forces."

August 29, 2013

Quantum Fluctuations and Their Energy | Of Particular Significance

...and from a 2008 article in New Scientist:

"The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists, it will mean all reality is virtual."

It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations - physics-math - 20 November 2008 - New Scientist

One more time: Nothingness is not in physics or in the universe; the universe comes out of Nothing. Otherwise explain the age old problem of the origin of original matter. Neither religion nor science have been adequately able to account for it. But mysticism does: it's an illusion, and that seems to be in the process of being confirmed by science itself.

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

― Albert Einstein

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck

LOL once again. When you quote Einstein on QM it makes me laugh. This is another thing you don't study but I do.

First though you have proof of this?

"the universe comes out of Nothing"

I am going to say this one more time, even in the vacuum of empty space there is no NO-THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!