Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Koldo]

But what did it justhappen from? Where did this magical property that can justmakethingshappen come from, and how? Did it always exist? What made this magical property? I think perhaps you are no better off as and when it comes to mere argument and explanation.... correct me if I am wrong please.

A similar question can be asked about 'goddidit'.
Why 'goddidit'? Neither this nor your question offer any further insight.

 

[Revoltingest]

And if you're insisting that "Godunnit®" is the answer, you're obliged to make the case. If the best you can offer is "Gee ... it seems highly unlikely that a monkey on a typewriter with a set number of keys could type out a sonnet with a set number of characters in a set amount of time" haven't you already divested your argument of any relevance to a discussion about God? Are we seriously expected to believe that God has a set number for calculating probability? If so .. what is it?

Additionally, if you're going to claim that "Goddunit®" is the answer, haven't you added at least one additional assumption to the equation?

Watson: It looks like the victim might have been strangled with the rope wrapped 'round its neck.
Holmes: Nonsense, Watson! It is clear that a horde of baboons dressed in Elvis costumes tickled the victim to death!
Watson: How? And who's Elvis?

Beyond that, are you not seeking to answer a mystery with an even greater mystery?

...

And even if we grant that some sort of intelligence created the universe, theists cannot demonstrate which intelligence it is.

Can we be fairly certain that the OP wasn't trying to argue that the universe was created by somebody else's deity?

What a killjoy...you're ruining their probability calculations!

 

[Revoltingest]

I would say that God and the gods are us, as apposed to just created us. It is an expansion of consciousness that develops into this physical realm. That is like your mind developing from a child. If you want to say that is luck, then fine. To say this universe comes into being through luck, then no.
If you had complete autonomy from the higher-consciousness (which you don't believe in) then the thoughts in your head you probably consider to be luck. It is not quite that though really is it, because there is only one original thought... after that, every thought is based on the last - or something eternal.

So many pronouncements....so lacking in evidence. I take the naturalistic view that thoughts are the result of brain activity.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I think you need to do some serious reading, plus you mustn't be aware of polls that show that you are wrong about what they think, which have been posted before. And your claim that these cosmologists and physicists are "blinding themselves with science and philosophy" is patently absurd. You simply are making one crazy assumption and assertion after another, which tells me that you have no intention of studying what these scientists are saying, nor are you interested because you have all the answers.

The bottom line: if you simply are not willing to do the homework, and then you act unethically by laughing at people whom you disagree with, I have to conclude that your "religious" approach isn't doing much to influence you in any kind of positive manner that I can detect.

Enough is enough.

A house is not going to assemble itself in midair..... not in this universe. That is patently absurd. Unless something is added to it to order it, it is not going to work by chance, I don't care how long you have. Look at the post earlier that Schroeder explains the odds of the monkeys. He explains in terms I can't what, yet it is obvious to me.

Perhaps you need to read a little as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

A house is not going to assemble itself in midair..... not in this universe. That is patently absurd. Unless something is added to it to order it, it is not going to work by chance, I don't care how long you have. Look at the post earlier that Schroeder explains the odds of the monkeys. He explains in terms I can't what, yet it is obvious to me.
Perhaps you need to read a little as well.

One of the problems talking with believers is that so many look at watches & houses, & from this reason that because some things require intelligence to assemble them, that all things do. This flies in the face of examples where order appears without intelligence being necessary to explain it.

 

[metis]

Let me suggest that there is not one piece of evidence that "consciousness" comes from anything other than living organisms. If one believes that there was some form of consciousness prior to the evolving of organisms, that's fine as far as a belief goes, but it is not science nor even anything close to science.

Therefore, positing that some sort of "cosmic consciousness" is somehow more scientifically "logical" than an evolving universe and planet that could have eventually produced consciousness in life forms makes so little sense. IOW, it's not science-- it's religion unsupported by any science.

 

[Robert.Evans]

And if you're insisting that "Godunnit®" is the answer, you're obliged to make the case. If the best you can offer is "Gee ... it seems highly unlikely that a monkey on a typewriter with a set number of keys could type out a sonnet with a set number of characters in a set amount of time" haven't you already divested your argument of any relevance to a discussion about God? Are we seriously expected to believe that God has a set number for calculating probability? If so .. what is it?

Additionally, if you're going to claim that "Goddunit®" is the answer, haven't you added at least one additional assumption to the equation?

Watson: It looks like the victim might have been strangled with the rope wrapped 'round its neck.
Holmes: Nonsense, Watson! It is clear that a horde of baboons dressed in Elvis costumes tickled the victim to death!
Watson: How? And who's Elvis?

Beyond that, are you not seeking to answer a mystery with an even greater mystery?

...

And even if we grant that some sort of intelligence created the universe, theists cannot demonstrate which intelligence it is.

Can we be fairly certain that the OP wasn't trying to argue that the universe was created by somebody else's deity?

Your equally obliged to make a case if you say naturaldidit or idontknow. Saying it is not one theory without another, and arguing it so strongly is absurd. There is too much evidence to the contrary, and I do wonder if some oh you are missing the links I have posted.

But an open mind is always good. Anyone who says it is not God must accept then that it is not intelligence and therefore it is luck. Poor substitute I think, no matter how complicated and obtuse the reply.

 

[Robert.Evans]

One of the problems talking with believers is that so many look at watches & houses, & from this reason that because some things require intelligence to assemble them, that all things do. This flies in the face of examples where order appears without intelligence being necessary to explain it.

That is only because you assume you would see that intelligence, and yet you can't see ours, so why would you? You trust your eyes too much Willy.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

how can you be this sure God can't possibly exist?

I'm not claiming that God can't possibly exist (although I do feel that no one has ever offered a persuasive argument for the existence of a supernatural being).

I'm saying that you cannot calculate probability for a scenario in which all the numbers are totally unknown. So to cite an example where the numbers are totally known and then imply that this has any relevance to the unknown scenario seems more than a tad fallacious.

...

Or am I in error? Is it possible to calculate probability when you have no numbers? Try out this variation on a typical probability question and let me know what your results are:

A jar contains X number of marbles of various colors. If a marble is drawn from the jar at random, what is the probability that this marble is red?

 

[Revoltingest]

That is only because you assume you would see that intelligence, and yet you can't see ours, so why would you? You trust your eyes too much Willy.

Eyes are more reliable that spiritual insight.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Let me suggest that there is not one piece of evidence that "consciousness" comes from anything other than living organisms. If one believes that there was some form of consciousness prior to the evolving of organisms, that's fine as far as a belief goes, but it is not science nor even anything close to science.

I don't think anyone is saying that it is sceince are they?
But there is evidence, and that is in believers, they are living witnesses. Some are better than others, sure, but to ignore them because science does not back them up seems wrong to me.

Therefore, positing that some sort of "cosmic consciousness" is somehow more scientifically "logical" than an evolving universe and planet that could have eventually produced consciousness
in life forms makes so little sense. IOW, it's not science-- it's religion unsupported by any science.

Again, gnosis from God is hidden, for a very good reason, to keep people out. But there is Goswami and Hagelin etc who speak in the same terms, even if not mainstream.

But if we say it is not logical, then you are saying that everything comes from luck. Now THAT is not logical. I don't know how anyone can subscribe to such a thought.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm not claiming that God can't possibly exist (although I do feel that no one has ever offered a persuasive argument for the existence of a supernatural being).

No one ever will. God opens the eyes not man. There is outer evidence, but as with any evidence, it has to be interpreted.

I'm saying that you cannot calculate probability for a scenario in which all the numbers are totally unknown. So to cite an example where the numbers are totally known and then imply that this has any relevance to the unknown scenario seems more than a tad fallacious.

There are scientists who have done just that.... go argue with them

...

Or am I in error? Is it possible to calculate probability when you have no numbers? Try out this variation on a typical probability question and let me know what your results are:

A jar contains X number of marbles of various colors. If a marble is drawn from the jar at random, what is the probability that this marble is red?

False argument I feel.. see above

 

[Robert.Evans]

Eyes are more reliable that spiritual insight.

That would depend on what your talking about. If it is a train coming towards you, then yes.

 

[metis]

A house is not going to assemble itself in midair..... not in this universe. That is patently absurd. Unless something is added to it to order it, it is not going to work by chance, I don't care how long you have. Look at the post earlier that Schroeder explains the odds of the monkeys. He explains in terms I can't what, yet it is obvious to me.

Perhaps you need to read a little as well.

I have done plenty of reading on this as I've been a scientist for 50 years, have read about a dozen books written by cosmologists and physicists within the last 10 years, had subscriptions to Scientific American for over 40 years, plus I've seen plenty of polls on scientific drifts, some of which have appeared here on various threads at RF even within the last couple of months.

You jump to conclusions and then laugh at people and insult those who dare to question your conclusions, so apparently your religious beliefs are totally irrelevant to your own behavior.

Time to use the ignore option, but that probably means nothing to you since you seem to be heavily into yourself.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I have done plenty of reading on this as I've been a scientist for 50 years, have read about a dozen books written by cosmologists and physicists within the last 10 years, had subscriptions to Scientific American for over 40 years, plus I've seen plenty of polls on scientific drifts, some of which have appeared here on various threads at RF even within the last couple of months.

You jump to conclusions and then laugh at people and insult those who dare to question your conclusions, so apparently your religious beliefs are totally irrelevant to your own behavior.

Time to use the ignore option, but that probably means nothing to you since you seem to be heavily into yourself.

Haha... okay. You certainly are not interested in anything anyone else says. I was trying to recall if you were the sceintist. I thought you were. hence the reason you hit the roof so much and can't think outside the box, I guess.... have a nice life then. bye bye

 

[Revoltingest]

That would depend on what your talking about. If it is a train coming towards you, then yes.

Eyes also showed us that the universe is expanding, that there is dark matter, that there is dark energy, etc, etc. Spiritual insight gives us planes flying into buildings.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Your equally obliged to make a case if you say naturaldidit or idontknow.

Quite simply: No I Am Not.

1.) I am not insisting that nature planned/caused the universe.
2.) Please demonstrate that "I don't know" is an explanation.

Saying it is not one theory without another, and arguing it so strongly is absurd.

No. It isn't.

If you come to my door selling snake oil, all I'm obliged to do is refuse your product. I am not obliged to make a counter-offer or explain what product I prefer in favor of your snake oil.

There is too much evidence to the contrary, and I do wonder if some oh you are missing the links I have posted.

By all means. Post 'em again.

But an open mind is always good. Anyone who says it is not God must accept then that it is not intelligence and therefore it is luck. Poor substitute I think, no matter how complicated and obtuse the reply.

You have yet to explain how your belief in God opting to create the universe is any different from "magic and luck."

1.) If you agree that God might have opted to not create the universe ... aren't we lucky (s)he did?
2.) If you believe that (s)he created the universe from nothing ... can you please explain how that differs from magic?

You've been dodging this question for some time now. If you cannot answer it, that's fine. It isn't like your running the risk of damaging my estimation of you.

 

[Robert.Evans]

“Statistically, the probability of any one of us being here is so small that the mere fact of our existence should keep us all in a state of contented dazzlement.”
― Lewis Thomas

 

[NulliuSINverba]

“Statistically, the probability of any one of us being here is so small that the mere fact of our existence should keep us all in a state of contented dazzlement.”
― Lewis Thomas

Meh.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Eyes also showed us that the universe is expanding, that there is dark matter, that there is dark energy, etc, etc. Spiritual insight gives us planes flying into buildings.

Haha.... I don't think so. I don't think anyone did that because of religion. The late bin laden went on for about three quarters of an hour about the foreign policies of the US.... never once did he say, ''And they read the Bible''.... haha. Human nature is what it is. In London UK, we have gangs which have an area to do with the postcode (zip). What has that to do with faith? We all believe in something just as the atheist did that tortured and killed believers in the past. Human nature and the ability to form our identity into groups so we have 'them and us'.