Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Guy Threepwood]

I'm not claiming that God can't possibly exist (although I do feel that no one has ever offered a persuasive argument for the existence of a supernatural being).

I'm saying that you cannot calculate probability for a scenario in which all the numbers are totally unknown. So to cite an example where the numbers are totally known and then imply that this has any relevance to the unknown scenario seems more than a tad fallacious.

...

Or am I in error? Is it possible to calculate probability when you have no numbers? Try out this variation on a typical probability question and let me know what your results are:

A jar contains X number of marbles of various colors. If a marble is drawn from the jar at random, what is the probability that this marble is red?

what are the odds of you getting a hole in one first time on a random golf course? I have no idea, the numbers are unknown, so I must assume it's as likely as not?

Similar my money would be on the marble not being red, because there are many other possibilities, whether or not we can calculate exact odds.

we also know that we would arrive at an infinite number of non functioning universes by altering the universal constants infinitesimally.

We don't know the odds of our universe appearing accidentally, but they don't look good, Hawking puts it at practically infinitely improbable, hence the number of multiverses required to fluke this one

 

[Robert.Evans]

Quite simply: No I Am Not.

1.) I am not insisting that nature planned/caused the universe.
2.) Please demonstrate that "I don't know" is an explanation.



No. It isn't.

If you come to my door selling snake oil, all I'm obliged to do is refuse your product. I am not obliged to make a counter-offer or explain what product I prefer in favor of your snake oil.



By all means. Post 'em again.



You have yet to explain how your belief in God opting to create the universe is any different from "magic and luck."

1.) If you agree that God might have opted to not create the universe ... aren't we lucky (s)he did?
2.) If you believe that (s)he created the universe from nothing ... can you please explain how that differs from magic?

You've been dodging this question for some time now. If you cannot answer it, that's fine. It isn't like your running the risk of damaging my estimation of you.

Magic is what you have... luck. We have intelliigence. I guess that is what annoys you so much... haha

 

[NulliuSINverba]

No one ever will. God opens the eyes not man.

More empty claims.

There is outer evidence, but as with any evidence, it has to be interpreted.

Translation: I've got my theistic rose-colored glasses on and (Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!) ... the world looks rosy to me.

There are scientists who have done just that.... go argue with them

Name a few of these scientists, please.

False argument I feel.. see above

Another empty claim. How special.

 

[metis]

We don't know the odds of our universe appearing accidentally, but they don't look good,

But what are the odds of a single deity somehow forming a universe/multiverse out of nothing, especially since we have no real evidence that such a deity even exists?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

God is creator of the universe either way, pantheism generally goes into specifics beyond that as does 'monotheism

I don't think pantheism requires God as creator, it's more like saying God = universe ( though of course if God = universe it might be better to drop the God bit and just discuss the universe ).

But my point was that the thread title talks about intelligence, and not about creation. And yet the thread has been dominated by the Sunday-school idea of God as creator.

 

[Revoltingest]

Haha.... I don't think so. I don't think anyone did that because of religion. The late bin laden went on for about three quarters of an hour about the foreign policies of the US.... never once did he say, ''And they read the Bible''.... haha. Human nature is what it is. In London UK, we have gangs which have an area to do with the postcode (zip). What has that to do with faith? We all believe in something just as the atheist did that tortured and killed believers in the past. Human nature and the ability to form our identity into groups so we have 'them and us'.

Religion wasn't behind 9/11? Well, we will agree to disagree. The problem with spiritual insight is that it leads people to believe that whatever they feel is "the truth". And yet, we see that this "truth" varies greatly from religion to religion, culture to culture, & individual to individual. More objective was of seeing things are available to all. Example: General relativity is embraced by Xians, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Pastafarians, Moonies, Scientologists, etc. Why? The physics behind it is verifiable without having to resort to feelings.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Haha.... I don't think so. I don't think anyone did that because of religion. The late bin laden went on for about three quarters of an hour about the foreign policies of the US.... never once did he say, ''And they read the Bible''.... haha. Human nature is what it is. In London UK, we have gangs which have an area to do with the postcode (zip). What has that to do with faith? We all believe in something just as the atheist did that tortured and killed believers in the past. Human nature and the ability to form our identity into groups so we have 'them and us'.

exactly, Bin Laden constantly ranted about the evils of free markets- not Christianity, what was the target of 9/11? an international symbol of Christianity? or free markets?

 

[Robert.Evans]

More empty claims.

From someone blind it would look that way,yes

Translation: I've got my theistic rose-colored glasses on and (Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!) ... the world looks rosy to me.

or you have your atheist glasses on so can't see anything

Name a few of these scientists, please.

go buy a pc and look yourself

Another empty claim. How special.

Glad you liked it. I feel you hate this subject and anyone to do with it. Your words and comments are always aggressive and non constructive. You are my idea of an atheist. Not good for discussion. Closed mind.

 

[Revoltingest]

exactly, Bin Laden constantly ranted about the evils of free markets- not Christianity, what was the target of 9/11? an international symbol of Christianity? or free markets?

Religious opposition to free markets....we see it here on RF all the time.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Religion wasn't behind 9/11? Well, we will agree to disagree. The problem with spiritual insight is that it leads people to believe that whatever they feel is "the truth". And yet, we see that this "truth" varies greatly from religion to religion, culture to culture, & individual to individual. More objective was of seeing things are available to all. Example: General relativity is embraced by Xians, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Pastafarians, Moonies, Scientologists, etc. Why? The physics behind it is verifiable without having to resort to feelings.

I have search this in the past. If you can give a link where it says it was, then fine. I still say it is human nature, and it would not matter if we believed or not.... we would still fight over land welath power...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think it's a mystery. It might be solved one day, but it will be solved by science, not religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have search this in the past. If you can give a link where it says it was, then fine. I still say it is human nature, and it would not matter if we believed or not.... we would still fight over land welath power...

Link? Why would someone else's opinion about Islamic origins of 9/11 be any better than mine?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

what are the odds of you getting a hole in one first time on a random golf course? I have no idea, the numbers are unknown, so I must assume it's as likely as not?

If I cited the probability of a monkey typing out a sonnet, would you feel that your golf-related question had been adequately answered?

Similar my money would be on the marble not being red, because there are many other possibilities, whether or not we can calculate exact odds.

Are you certain that there are any red marbles in the jar?

we also know that we would arrive at an infinite number of non functioning universes by altering the universal constants infinitesimally.

How would you define a "non-functioning universe?" What would a "non-functioning universe" look like? How would it be calibrated?

We don't know the odds of our universe appearing accidentally, but they don't look good, Hawking puts it at practically infinitely improbable, hence the number of multiverses required to fluke this one

Would you care to explain the odds of our universe appearing on purpose?

 

[Robert.Evans]

exactly, Bin Laden constantly ranted about the evils of free markets- not Christianity, what was the target of 9/11? an international symbol of Christianity? or free markets?

Agreed!
I will have to comment on it though, because it is so apt. It would have been so easy to fly it into a Church wouldn't it... but he didn't. The West's oppression of the East is now telling I think.... and we have made a complete mess over there, and it will go on for generations I think..... we are idiotic!

 

[Robert.Evans]

Link? Why would someone else's opinion about Islamic origins of 9/11 be any better than mine?

You can't find one either then

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I don't think pantheism requires God as creator, it's more like saying God = universe ( though of course if God = universe it might be better to drop the God bit and just discuss the universe ).

But my point was that the thread title talks about intelligence, and not about creation. And yet the thread has been dominated by the Sunday-school idea of God as creator.

order it, create it, as far as we can possible determine, the universe had a very specific creation point, a seed, a literal self extracting archive of information, composed in such a way as to develop specific fusion reactors producing specific elements for life- and ultimately it's own consciousness to ponder itself with. atheism, theism or pantherism, this creation, order, origins of this reality has to be accounted for somehow.

the concept of a beginning was rejected because it was sunday school, turned out to be science also

 

[Revoltingest]

You can't find one either then

I didn't look. Do you really think I wouldn't find other opinions that Islam was behind 9/11? Certainly, politics plays a role, but suicide attacks, martyrdom, religious sloganeering, paint me a picture of violent religious fanaticism.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Agreed!
I will have to comment on it though, because it is so apt. It would have been so easy to fly it into a Church wouldn't it... but he didn't. The West's oppression of the East is now telling I think.... and we have made a complete mess over there, and it will go on for generations I think..... we are idiotic!

well we finally found something to disagree on!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

If I cited the probability of a monkey typing out a sonnet, would you feel that your golf-related question had been adequately answered?

not sure I understand you

Are you certain that there are any red marbles in the jar?

No, that's why I'd bet against it, too many other possibilities

How would you define a "non-functioning universe?" What would a "non-functioning universe" look like? How would it be calibrated?

any of the infinite number that would not even develop space/time for ANY event to happen in, far less life- far less sentient life, and that's what we know we would get if they were altered by the tiniest amount

Would you care to explain the odds of our universe appearing on purpose?

an author has a higher success rate than a monkey

 

[Rick O'Shez]

the concept of a beginning was rejected because it was sunday school, turned out to be science also

The latest thinking in cosmology is that the big bang was only the latest in an infinite series, so the idea of a "beginning" is now looking a bit simplistic. The point about science it that it continually develops it's ideas as new evidence emerges. Religion might try to adapt and incorporate new discoveries, but is ham-strung by it's basic beliefs.