Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

.... the Universe has, for all intents and purposes, always existed. It had a beginning. We can observe that beginning. But it has also always existed, because the "always" we're talking about is dependent on the model of time that only came into being when the universe was born.

The universe has always existed, but not always as manifested. It sometimes exists only as potential, which is then manifested in a pattern of on/off pulsation. I have come to see this pulsating pattern as a series of events in consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

Interesting.... can you go deeper?

Do you believe in a God as maker of the world?

I neither believe, nor not-believe. That way, I am freed from being forced to take up a position of contention, which leads to defense, and then to offense. Instead of belief, I try to focus on seeing things as they are, without forming a belief about what I see.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Do you believe in a God as maker of the world?

I neither believe, nor not-believe. That way, I am freed from being forced to take up a position of contention, which leads to defense, and then to offense. Instead of belief, I try to focus on seeing things as they are, without forming a belief about what I see.

So where do you pull all this from? Is it different scripture, or your own.

 

[Nietzsche]

The universe has always existed, but not always as manifested. It sometimes exists only as potential, which is then manifested in a pattern of on/off pulsation. I have come to see this pulsating pattern as a series of events in consciousness.

And I can and would claim it is not a 'pattern' at all, and that when viewing events on the cosmic scale I am struck not by their uniformity, but by the utterly chaotic means by which it plays out.

 

[godnotgod]

And I can and would claim it is not a 'pattern' at all, and that when viewing events on the cosmic scale I am struck not by their uniformity, but by the utterly chaotic means by which it plays out.

That's part of the cycle. Birth, harmony, then chaos and death. Rinse, lather, repeat. Chaos cannot exist without Harmony. The two are Relative and therefore inseparable. Ultimately, however, there is Absolute Harmony. But the details of the overall pattern of 'on/off' are not necessarily repeated identically to the last incarnation of the universe. Each incarnation is different, but there is a definite pattern of 'on/off' as part of the cosmic game of 'now you see it; now you don't' which itself is a form of Hide and Seek as the basic game of the universe. The divine nature is playing all the myriad parts of the universe simultaneously, pretending to be those forms, and hiding within them from itself.

As for ourselves, it is the divine nature that is pretending to be you and I, acting out the drama of whatever Identity we now manifest as. That is the Hide phase. Then something happens. We notice that something isn't quite right, and this prompts the Seek phase. This subtle prompting from within is nothing else but our divine nature prompting us to awaken from the dream-sleep of Identification we are immersed in. Who we really are is not who we think we are. The universe is not what we think it is. As Alan Watts tells us, we are nothing short of the Indestructible Sunyata itself. We are THAT pretending we don't know we're THAT.

 

[godnotgod]

So where do you pull all this from? Is it different scripture, or your own.

Will you answer my question?

 

[Nietzsche]

That's part of the cycle. Birth, harmony, then chaos and death. Rinse, lather, repeat. But the details of the overall pattern of 'on/off' are not necessarily repeated identically to the last incarnation. Each one is different, but there is a definite pattern of 'on/off' as part of the cosmic game of 'now you see it; now you don't' which itself is a form of Hide and Seek as the basic game of the universe. The divine nature is playing all the myriad parts of the universe simultaneously, pretending to be those forms, and hiding within them from itself.

As for ourselves, it is the divine nature that is pretending to be you and I, acting out the drama of whatever Identity we now manifest as. That is the Hide phase. Then something happens. We notice that something isn't quite right, and this prompts the Seek phase. This subtle prompting from within is nothing else but our divine nature prompting us to awaken from the dream-sleep of Identification we are immersed in. Who we really are is not who we think we are. The universe is not what we think it is. As Alan Watts tells us, we are nothing short of the Indestructible Sunyata itself. We are THAT pretending we don't know we're THAT; pretending to be 'poor little me', and acting funny when the facade has been detected. In short, we're all poker-faced frauds!

For someone who claims not to know, you sure do state a lot as fact.

 

[Ouroboros]

But what if that ''understanding'' it, brings it into being? Wow!

Yup. I've had that thought in the past. If reality is brought about by observation, then perhaps God is the Final Observer, rather than the First Cause.

 

[Ouroboros]

It is not separate from you. You are 100% integrated into the universe and are dependent upon it to the same degree. It envelopes you and nurtures you without dominating you. Some call it 'Tao'. And the intelligence you are tapping into to understand it is the same intelligence of the universe. Only the ego thinks it is separate in a subject/object relationship where no such separation can actually be found.

I agree.

 

[Nietzsche]

That's part of the cycle. Birth, harmony, then chaos and death. Rinse, lather, repeat. Chaos cannot exist without Harmony. The two are Relative and therefore inseparable. Ultimately, however, there is Absolute Harmony. But the details of the overall pattern of 'on/off' are not necessarily repeated identically to the last incarnation of the universe. Each incarnation is different, but there is a definite pattern of 'on/off' as part of the cosmic game of 'now you see it; now you don't' which itself is a form of Hide and Seek as the basic game of the universe. The divine nature is playing all the myriad parts of the universe simultaneously, pretending to be those forms, and hiding within them from itself.

As for ourselves, it is the divine nature that is pretending to be you and I, acting out the drama of whatever Identity we now manifest as. That is the Hide phase. Then something happens. We notice that something isn't quite right, and this prompts the Seek phase. This subtle prompting from within is nothing else but our divine nature prompting us to awaken from the dream-sleep of Identification we are immersed in. Who we really are is not who we think we are. The universe is not what we think it is. As Alan Watts tells us, we are nothing short of the Indestructible Sunyata itself. We are THAT pretending we don't know we're THAT.

I would like to say that I think you have gravely misunderstood quantum mechanics. Yes, at that level(the smallest possible), observation does change things. But it has been shown that sentience nor intelligence is required. We made a machine to observe, a sensor, and it had the same effect. Observation, not understanding, is all that is required, and in that regard anything that can observe anything at all qualifies.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Will you answer my question?

Do I think God created everything?
To me everything comes from Source, even what we think of as God. After that, everything is evolving consciousness- what we see, and what we are. The highest part of that consciousness is God; the lowest part is us, Man. Did God create all things, yes, if you mean Source or first-image, God. And yes if you mean the highest order of intelligence (God) that allows us to manifest as what we see. It is all one consciousness. We are part of God, his eyes and mouth etc, but only as the lower God, as he himself reflects his earlier Self. It is the play and display of infomation, thoughts, divine attributes.

So the short answer is yes, but not as most would normally explain it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, wasn't the original scenario that the monkeys would eventually produce a Bible?

The original quote allowed for unlimited time and is not attributed to the person in the op. The problem with this scenario is that nature has more advantageous situations than the monkey at the typewriter. For example after a certain amount of time self replication molecules and compounds come into existence. Going back to the monkey analogy when certain words phrases or sentences are arrived at randomly then they need to be allowed to be used as a single keystroke which dramatically reduces the odds.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

You enjoyed yourself?

Only if you'll swear that you didn't read the post you're inquiring about.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Do I think God created everything?

One would be forgiven for thinking that this was a simple "YES/NO" sort of question. Because ...

To me everything comes from Source, even what we think of as God.

God comes from Source? So Source created God? That's an incredible revelation.

...

Meanwhile, if you're going to qualify your remarks regarding Source or God with a "To me..." then perhaps you ought to refrain from attributing the rest of your pseudo-explanation to "we?" It's presumptuous.

After that, everything is evolving consciousness- what we see, and what we are. The highest part of that consciousness is God; the lowest part is us, Man.

Do Christian scriptures support the notion that God evolves? Care to cite an example?

Did God create all things, yes, if you mean Source or first-image, God.

And if we don't mean Source God or First Image God ... then no?

And yes if you mean the highest order of intelligence (God) that allows us to manifest as what we see.

That last bit and the rest just sort of devolves into woo-mongering. No wonder your theological ramblings are such a mess.

It is all one consciousness. We are part of God, his eyes and mouth etc, but only as the lower God, as he himself reflects his earlier Self. It is the play and display of infomation, thoughts, divine attributes.

Claim after claim after claim after claim. Thankfully, it's all your personal baggage and can be safely disregarded.

So the short answer is yes, but not as most would normally explain it.

That's putting it mildly.

 

[godnotgod]

I would like to say that I think you have gravely misunderstood quantum mechanics. Yes, at that level(the smallest possible), observation does change things. But it has been shown that sentience nor intelligence is required. We made a machine to observe, a sensor, and it had the same effect. Observation, not understanding, is all that is required, and in that regard anything that can observe anything at all qualifies.

I do believe you have responded to the wrong post. The one you responded to says nothing about QM.

 

[godnotgod]

Do I think God created everything?
To me everything comes from Source, even what we think of as God. After that, everything is evolving consciousness- what we see, and what we are. The highest part of that consciousness is God; the lowest part is us, Man. Did God create all things, yes, if you mean Source or first-image, God. And yes if you mean the highest order of intelligence (God) that allows us to manifest as what we see. It is all one consciousness. We are part of God, his eyes and mouth etc, but only as the lower God, as he himself reflects his earlier Self. It is the play and display of infomation, thoughts, divine attributes.

So the short answer is yes, but not as most would normally explain it.

So does your explanation mean that your creator-God is separate from his creation? IOW, is God 'out there' and we 'over here'?

 

[Nietzsche]

I do believe you have responded to the wrong post. The one you responded to says nothing about QM.

It had to do with observance being integral to the Universe. I think that is sufficient. Unless you are in fact talking about something different, in which case I apologize.

 

[godnotgod]

For someone who claims not to know, you sure do state a lot as fact.

Not as fact, as fact is provable via Logic, Reason, and Analysis, but via realization. Though we discover behaviors and qualities about nature that are provable as fact, nature itself is beyond mere fact. Because we do attempt to 'understand' nature via Reason, we always end up with paradox, even though we discover factual knowledge.

The 'not-knowing' mind is the mind that sees things as they are. The conceptualizing mind sees them as it thinks they are.

Some parts of my post can lead to being off-topic, but basically, what part of it is there a question about?

 

[godnotgod]

It had to do with observance being integral to the Universe. I think that is sufficient. Unless you are in fact talking about something different, in which case I apologize.

No apology necessary, but can you direct me to the content re: observation you have in mind?

 

[Nietzsche]

No apology necessary, but can you direct me to the content re: observation you have in mind?

Oh dear. I appear to have mistaken another poster for yourself.

Yup. I've had that thought in the past. If reality is brought about by observation, then perhaps God is the Final Observer, rather than the First Cause.

^That is what I meant to reply to.

(For Ouroboros) - I would like to say that I think you have gravely misunderstood quantum mechanics. Yes, at that level(the smallest possible), observation does change things. But it has been shown that sentience nor intelligence is required. We made a machine to observe, a sensor, and it had the same effect. Observation, not understanding, is all that is required, and in that regard anything that can observe anything at all qualifies.