Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[YmirGF]

This is just plain wrong. Cosmic consciousness is a new-age idea, not a Buddhist one.

I first heard about it from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi when I got into Transcendental Marination.

 

[YmirGF]

I hear you say you have seen it but you don 't believe it. Is this correct?

Nope. You don't understand me at all, really.
It's a part of my everyday existence. There is no need to humble myself to being. I am.
What I am lobbing grenades at is the inaccurate portrayal by yourself, godnotgod and others in this thread. A small, but important, difference.

 

[YmirGF]

I've had experiences of expanded awareness and feelings of cosmic connectedness. It just seems to be a jump to claim consciousness is absolute or universal based on subjective experiences alone. Plus, there's all these issues with semantics, etc. What exactly is consciousness? What are we talking about? I don't know that and I don't pretend to know. I'm suspicious of those who claim to know without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe there is an antidote for uncertainty. It's like zen masters arguing over who is more humble and more enlightened.

You and me both, babe. Very well said. And... if you do not agree with them, you're just not looking at thing the right way (ie. their way). It does promote gales of laughter though... I will admit.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So how would this supposedly differ from one who uses meditation but feels that there is no indication that such a "cosmic consciousness" actually exists?

There are advanced Buddhist meditative states called jhana, which describe increasingly refined states of consciousness - these include infinite space and consciousness. It's possible to interpret these as accessing a transcendent level of reality, but it's a tricky and technical question and there is no consensus on it. Having had some experience of these states what I can say is that it would be easy to make assumptions about them. I think that sometimes people have such experiences and then want them to read all sorts of things into them - but wishful thinking is itself not conclusive.

 

[Straw Dog]

You and me both, babe. Very well said.

Thanks! I'm glad we understand each other.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I've had experiences of expanded awareness and feelings of cosmic connectedness. It just seems to be a jump to claim consciousness is absolute or universal based on subjective experiences alone.

Yes, that's the problem I'm having. I feel like there are a lot of "maybes" associated with these experiences.

 

[savagewind]

I've had experiences of expanded awareness and feelings of cosmic connectedness. It just seems to be a jump to claim consciousness is absolute or universal based on subjective experiences alone. Plus, there's all these issues with semantics, etc. What exactly is consciousness? What are we talking about? I don't know that and I don't pretend to know. I'm suspicious of those who claim to know without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe there is an antidote for uncertainty. It's like zen masters arguing over who is more humble and more enlightened.

I have never met anyone outside of the Jehovah's Wintesses who claim to know "without a shadow of doubt". The words "I think, so it's true " and "I believe with no doubt" are words that people who even believe like that (the JWs) don't say. So then it is in your imagination that people "claim to know without a shadow of a doubt". Why not start a thread with a poll and see if anyone here believes everything they think is true is true with no shadow of a doubt. I doubt myself all the time.

What do I think the consciousness is that we are talking about? It is the awareness of what is really real or the having of knowledge. I believe knowledge exists apart from matter. I have said that maybe the brain developed to house something that already existed. Not the other way around. It is assumed the brain creates knowledge. I think knowledge creates brains.

 

[metis]

There are advanced Buddhist meditative states called jhana, which describe increasingly refined states of consciousness - these include infinite space and consciousness. It's possible to interpret these as accessing a transcendent level of reality, but it's a tricky and technical question and there is no consensus on it. Having had some experience of these states what I can say is that it would be easy to make assumptions about them. I think that sometimes people have such experiences and then want them to read all sorts of things into them - but wishful thinking is itself not conclusive.

I wasn't familiar with the term "jhana". but I'm familiar with the concept. My approach to and use of dharma is mainly philosophical/psychological, so I don't feel any need to buy the entire package. But then dharma itself says it's unnecessary to do so anyway.

 

[YmirGF]

There are advanced Buddhist meditative states called jhana, which describe increasingly refined states of consciousness - these include infinite space and consciousness. It's possible to interpret these as accessing a transcendent level of reality, but it's a tricky and technical question and there is no consensus on it. Having had some experience of these states what I can say is that it would be easy to make assumptions about them. I think that sometimes people have such experiences and then want them to read all sorts of things into them - but wishful thinking is itself not conclusive.

I've tried pointing out the assumptive thingy to godnotgod before, but he seems impervious to the argument.

 

[savagewind]

Nope. You don't understand me at all, really.
It's a part of my everyday existence. There is no need to humble myself to being. I am.
What I am lobbing grenades at is the inaccurate portrayal by yourself, godnotgod and others in this thread. A small, but important, difference.

You are disagreeing with your opinion of us. That is funny!

 

[YmirGF]

You are disagreeing with your opinion of us. That is funny!

Tell yourself whatever you have to.

 

[savagewind]

Tell yourself whatever you have to.

That is what we all do. You too! Thank you for your permission. So kind!

 

[savagewind]

I am half listening to a commercial on the TV and I hear the words "I am sceptical of sure things". Haha! I don't know what it was about. I sure am sceptical of everything claimed to be a "sure thing" but haha sure things are sure things. Get it?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

..sure things.

Death and taxes?

 

[godnotgod]

I've had experiences of expanded awareness and feelings of cosmic connectedness. It just seems to be a jump to claim consciousness is absolute or universal based on subjective experiences alone. Plus, there's all these issues with semantics, etc. What exactly is consciousness? What are we talking about? I don't know that and I don't pretend to know. I'm suspicious of those who claim to know without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe there is an antidote for uncertainty. It's like zen masters arguing over who is more humble and more enlightened.

A Zen Master would never even consider doing that. That is a ridiculous notion. Adepts might indulge, but not a true Zen Master.

Cosmic consciousness transcends both subject and object. That is why it can be called cosmic consciousness. It is not an experience one sees via one's personal viewpoint. It is a universal viewpoint, and because mind is not involved, neither is thinking. If thinking is not involved, where is the possibility for semantic distortion?

Consciousness is that state of awareness in which no attempt is made to grasp or define what it knows. Consciousness is about seeing, while mind is about thinking.

The prisoners in Plato's Cave were suspicious of the claim of a Sun existing topside, All they need do is go see for themselves to verify the claim. Higher Consciousness is perfectly verifiable. Verification has been going on for centuries, as those who have experienced it in different places throughout history report pretty much the same information independently of one another without factual proof or evidence. But please understand one thing: no one is compelled to convince others of its authenticity. Its like a cool mountain spring. A passerby may stop to partake of its refreshment, or move on. The mountain spring just continues to happily bubble forth without concern.

 

[godnotgod]

No one can, including those that have experienced it, provide evidence that it was not all in their head. As a subjective case it can't be supported by evidence which makes it tricky to argue for without sounding like a bag full of hot air.

Except that the experience has nothing to do with what is in the head. The head is empty.

 

[YmirGF]

Death and taxes?

Unbounded stupidity masking itself as deep thought?

Except that the experience has nothing to do with what is in the head. The head is empty.

There are some things you don't need to tell us, godnotgod. Thanks for confirming the emptiness of your endless rhetoric though.

 

[godnotgod]

So, what you are in essence saying is that a belief in "cosmic consciousness" and $5 can get one a small coffee at Starbucks.

BTW, how exactly can one actually experience "cosmic consciousness" unless they've actually traveled everywhere throughout the entire cosmos?

You are already there. You experience it right where you are. Why should Reality be different here from there? I am not referring to personal viewpoints of reality, but to the nature of Reality itself. It's the same everywhere. That's why it can be called 'Universal'.

A belief in CC will get you in contact with other believers, and you can go round and round in circles in your heads. Or you can shuck your beliefs and go try to find out for yourself. If you decide on the latter path, be informed that you are now playing the Master Game, which is the most difficult life game to play, requiring all your effort and attention. The goal of the Master Game is Spiritual Awakening. You can, of course, choose to remain asleep, and join other sleeping people at Starbucks. If they're Christians, you can join them in the dark, shouting to lend comfort to one another.

 

[godnotgod]

There are some things you don't need to tell us, godnotgod. Thanks for confirming the emptiness of your endless rhetoric though.

Rhetoric to your mind, but empty through and through. But its a good empty, even empty of itself. As I said, the head is empty, but that may be over your head.

 

[YmirGF]

Rhetoric to your mind, but empty through and through. But its a good empty, even empty of itself. As I said, the head is empty, but that may be over your head.

Oddly, I sense quite a healthy ego in your posts. Obviously, I'm wrong on that, as you are the Perfect Master playing the Master Game.