Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

What about subconscious thinking that evades awareness? What about cultural and personal preconceptions that we are conditioned with?

What about them? All of that is transcended in the state of higher consciousness. You are referring to the Third Level of Consciousness, that of Identification. Higher Consciousness is the awakening into the Fourth Level (Self-Transcendence) and beyond.

[QUOTE="godnotgod, post:4086674, member: 19325]Consciousness is that state of awareness in which no attempt is made to grasp or define what it knows. Consciousness is about seeing, while mind is about thinking.[/QUOTE]

The mind is literally about thinking. The eyes are literally for seeing. Could you use a different word for what consciousness is about that is technically unique to itself rather than metaphorical or borrowing terms from other senses?

Seeing via consciousness is direct insight into the true nature of reality. The true nature of Reality is found everywhere. It is everywhere in the universe, and within all things, including man. It is universal. So the insight into the true nature of Reality is itself Universal Consciousness. The Hindus express it as:

'The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere',

and

'Tas tvam asi' (Thou art That)

 

[godnotgod]

See? Its hard not to come off as hot air. Bringing meaning to your words without evidence is a skill and a talent that most of us do not have.

You will never be able to convince me or anyone else that your experiences are legitimate if they run counter to the evidence and simply saying things doesn't make them so. Which is more or less why I don't engage you in debates anymore.

Pointing to the moon requires no evidence. But you have to take a look at what is being pointed to instead of attacking the pointing finger. Attacking my pointing finger is not engaging in debate. If you want to engage in debate you must take a closer look at the moon.

 

[godnotgod]

What makes this all so "exciting" is that beliefs such as "cosmic consciousness" and most religious beliefs, are virtually unfalsifiable, therefore they persist. Logically, how would one go about somehow finding evidence that either doesn't exist? But then neither is there any objective evidence for them, so why should I have a belief one way or another?

I've gotten quite use to not knowing answers over my rather vintage 69 years.

The odd thing is that everyone here is being driven by higher consciousness without being aware of it.

'That which you are seeking is causing you to seek'
Cheri Huber, Zennist

 

[Sapiens]

Pointing to the moon requires no evidence. But you have to take a look at what is being pointed to instead of attacking the pointing finger. Attacking my pointing finger is not engaging in debate. If you want to engage in debate you must take a closer look at the moon.

There's an old saying that I'd apply here: "Always keep an open mind ... but not so open that your brains fall out."

 

[godnotgod]

I first heard about it from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi when I got into Transcendental Marination.

It's origin is not from New Age or Buddhist or TM. It comes from Maurice Bucke who wrote
'Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind', circa 1901, which is an account of his own experience of Cosmic Consciousness. Bucke borrowed the term "cosmic consciousness" from Edward Carpenter, who had traveled and studied religion in the East. Bucke's friend, Carpenter, had derived the term "cosmic consciousness" from the Eastern term "universal consciousness." In his description of his personal experience... Carpenter wrote 'Towards Democracy in 1883, which reflects his experience of cosmic consciousness, or 'cosmic sense'.

There are many names for the experience of cosmic consciousness, but there is only one Reality.

The Evolution of Consciousness: Edward Carpenter’s 'Towards Democracy' | Kirsten Harris - Academia.edu

http://selfdefinition.org/christian/Cosmic-Consciousness-by-Richard-M-Bucke--text.pdf

 

[godnotgod]

There's an old saying that I'd apply here: "Always keep an open mind ... but not so open that your brains fall out."

An empty mind, or 'no-mind' in Zen, is simply a mind devoid of preconceived notions about reality.

 

[YmirGF]

It's origin is not from New Age or Buddhist or TM. It comes from Maurice Bucke who wrote
'Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind', circa 1901, which is an account of his own experience of Cosmic Consciousness. Bucke borrowed the term "cosmic consciousness" from Edward Carpenter, who had traveled and studied religion in the East. Bucke's friend, Carpenter, had derived the term "cosmic consciousness" from the Eastern term "universal consciousness." In his description of his personal experience... Carpenter wrote 'Towards Democracy in 1883, which reflects his experience of cosmic consciousness, or 'cosmic sense'.

There are many names for the experience of cosmic consciousness, but there is only one Reality.

I didn't say that I was ignorant of the etymology of the word, godnotgod. As stated, my first encounter with the expression was in and around 1974... well after my own experiences began. For awhile the young me thought it was just another phase in growing up. (I kid you not.)

 

[YmirGF]

An empty mind, or 'no-mind' in Zen, is simply a mind devoid of preconceived notions about reality.

For someone with no preconceived notions about reality you sure let it rip when talking about the Master Game and the clear delineation of the various stages. Things that make one go, "Hmmm."

 

[godnotgod]

That is the point I was trying to make that seems to have flown right over our Perfect Master's empty, thoughtless, head. When pondering the enormity of this universe, let alone considering the fact it may be one of billions of other universes, using words like "cosmic" rings a tad hollow. Granted, at first, the experience DOES seem to be cosmic when compared with normal consciousness, but calling it cosmic, as if it really were, is a few shades beyond the pale.

You are referring to empty head and thoughtless in a derogatory sense, but it only reflects your utter ignorance. To call someone 'empty headed' in the East is one of the highest compliments one can pay another person.

What you're not getting is that cosmic consciousness does not refer to any form in the universe, but to what is behind all forms. That is what is universal. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp? Whatever remains in your head must be obstructing your vision. Empty it of all accumulated baggage first, then take another look with that shiny new, stainless steel, empty head.

 

[godnotgod]

For someone with no preconceived notions about reality you sure let it rip when talking about the Master Game and the clear delineation of the various stages. Things that make one go, "Hmmm."

Things which are arrived at via not having preconceived notions. See how it works? Soon you'll catch on...er...or is it 'let go'? LOL....

 

[godnotgod]

I didn't say that I was ignorant of the etymology of the word, godnotgod. As stated, my first encounter with the expression was in and around 1974... well after my own experiences began. For awhile the young me thought it was just another phase in growing up. (I kid you not.)

My point is simply that its origin is thousands of years old, and not some flash in the pan, new agey, hippie ish, Berzerkely ite wild haired marijuana induced naive, wishy washy touchy feely zany hare brained woo woo.

heh heh...as it turned out, it WAS another phase of your growing up, but I still deny you the title of Bodhisattva, which is still just so much window dressing.

 

[Thief]

My point is simply that its origin is thousands of years old, and not some flash in the pan, new agey, hippie ish, Berzerkely ite wild haired marijuana induced naive, wishy washy touchy feely zany hare brained woo woo.

heh heh...as it turned out, it WAS another phase of your growing up, but I still deny you the title of Bodhisattva, which is still just so much window dressing.

Old ideas do not indicate realistic thinking.

 

[godnotgod]

Old ideas do not indicate realistic thinking.

What you refer to as old ideas are outside of time and space, and so, are always fresh and current. They're timeless. They only need be expressed once, but science, with all its 'new' ideas, soon finds them old and worn out, seeking new ones again, none of which gel conclusively. Same goes for religion.

 

[godnotgod]

I get all that, godnotgod. I simply do not let my imagination run off with my thinking. I keep my feet planted firmly on the ground.
In some respects, yes, this is a cosmic dance. I see that, I feel that. Sometimes it is more like a jousting match, but that is just flavoring really. What I was attempting to show was the conscious realization of the enormity of what I am seeing. To think that light has travelled for years - at the speed of light - dwarfs even notions of so-called "cosmic" consciousness. The "cosmic" aspect is a preliminary state, that is adjacent the normative state of being. It only seems "cosmic"... at first... In truth, there is very little "cosmic" about it. It just is... it's just another state of being and not much to get worked up over.

The eye with which you see the cosmos is the same eye with which the cosmos sees you.

You are not an independent observer apart from the cosmos; YOU are the cosmos, looking at itself through your eyes.

 

[godnotgod]

godnotgod said: ↑
Don't you realize that the experience of the Buddha was exactly the merging of consciousness with the universe?

No, I'm afraid that's way off the mark.

'The skandhas combined constitute the basis of all dharmas, of all sentient beings in the ten directions and of all worlds in all the universes. The skandhas are, furthermore, the substance of the incandescent True Existence, being at the same time the transcendental Void or Emptiness. Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva, relying on his luminous wisdom, "perceived that all five skandhas are empty." The Bodhisattva practiced deep Prajnaparamita, i.e., the root of Ultimate Reality, and attained the supreme Tao, realizing that skandhas are empty of self. To arrive at that stage is enlightenment, the state completely clear of turbidity. From then on, all dharmas are understood as one's True Nature. When that level is attained, the mind comprehends the universe as the Self, and the Self, as the universe; the grand view is boundless. In short, Void or Emptiness means the absence of duality, of accepting and rejecting.'

Heart Sutra: Commentary on Text (3)

The 'absence of duality', then, must include non-material consciousness and the material world. They are one and the same.

This view is consistent with that of Vedanta, which sees maya (the world) as none other than Brahman (pure consciousness). IOW:

'The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'
Vivekenanda

and:

'Form is emptiness;
emptiness is form'

'Cosmic Consciousness' is simply the realization that you are none other than the universe, and the universe none other than you.

Tas tvam asi


edit: That the five skandhas are empty is just to say that the material world is void of abiding substance, because it is a projection of Brahman, as maya. IOW, it is illusion, which is the product of consciousness. The illusory world is none other than the conscious, intelligent universe, playing all the various parts of the universe simultaneously, pretending to be those things in the Cosmic Game of Hide and Seek. Ordinary Mind is the Hide phase; The Seeker is the Seek phase, which is prompted by Universal Consciousness. Awakening is the discovery that one was none other than the Ultimate Reality all along. This is exactly what the Buddha found out.

​

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Pointing to the moon requires no evidence. But you have to take a look at what is being pointed to instead of attacking the pointing finger. Attacking my pointing finger is not engaging in debate. If you want to engage in debate you must take a closer look at the moon.

No. You aren't debating. You are saying words. There is no evidence presented. There is no argument posted. There is simply you explaining your opinion without basis for believing it and half-cocked excuses as to why you can't support it.

Even if you are right, this still is the case. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what debate is.

 

[godnotgod]

No. You aren't debating. You are saying words. There is no evidence presented. There is no argument posted. There is simply you explaining your opinion without basis for believing it and half-cocked excuses as to why you can't support it.

Even if you are right, this still is the case. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what debate is.

Ha ha ha ha. you're a trip, monk. Imagine that: a debate with no evidence being presented . What a novel idea. Why, all I have to do is lift my pinkie and you jump like a coiled up tiger.

'Half cocked'? Whaddya mean, 'half cocked'? I'm FULLY cocked on a hair trigger, m'dear!

No evidence. No argument. Just pointing to the moon.

So...this is how I debate. If you don't like my style, OK. But I can handle a springing tiger, no problem. I'm a Zennist, dancing into the empty spaces, so of course you can't get a handle on me. So wha'tcha gonna do? I got my rules; you got yours. I can deal with yours, but you can;t deal with mine. What does that tell you?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Ha ha ha ha. you're a trip, monk. Imagine that: a debate with no evidence being presented . What a novel idea. Why, all I have to do is lift my pinkie and you jump like a coiled up tiger.

'Half cocked'? Whaddya mean, 'half cocked'? I'm FULLY cocked on a hair trigger, m'dear!

So...this is how I debate. If you don't like my style, OK. But I can handle a springing tiger, no problem. I'm a Zennist, dancing into the empty spaces, so of course you can't get a handle on me. So wha'tcha gonna do? I got my rules; you got yours. I can deal with yours, but you can;t deal with mine. What does that tell you?

It tells me you don't know how to debate or the way debate works. If you did you would realize your boasts shouldn't be boasts. I could sit here and tell you how dandelions are actually aliens but there is no way to verify it and you couldn't say anything to counter. Does that just mean I am the total OG gangsta of debate? Or does it make me a moron for trying to debate a topic that can't actually be debated because its a subjective personal opinion?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Heart Sutra: Commentary on Text (3)
The 'absence of duality', then, must include non-material consciousness and the material world. They are one and the same.

The Heart Sutra describes the emptiness of the 5 aggregates, emptiness being the absence of independent existence. I think you are reading too much into it. I think you are attached to a belief in "cosmic consciousness" and you are scrabbling around trying to validate it. That isn't the Zen approach, by the way.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What you're not getting is that cosmic consciousness does not refer to any form in the universe, but to what is behind all forms.

What you're not getting is that "cosmic consciousness" is an assumption in your mind, a belief that you have grown attached to and want to evangelise.