Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

YOU are the cosmos, looking at itself through your eyes.

What does that actually mean though? Obviously we're all part of the cosmos, but are you proposing the cosmos as one giant intelligence of which we are all aspects? Something like that?

 

[godnotgod]

What you're not getting is that "cosmic consciousness" is an assumption in your mind, a belief that you have grown attached to and want to evangelise.

What you're not getting is that it makes no difference to me what the terms are. Cosmic Consciousness is no different than the Buddha's Enlightenment, or Universal Consciousness, which, as I pointed out, was the source from the East for the term 'CC'. The meat of the question is that, as I also reference twice for you, consciousness is none other than the material world, and vice versa, as expounded both in Hinduism and Buddhism, signifying that there is but one Reality.

Reality is not a doctrine that can be peddled, so what is there to evangelize or convert to? Nada.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Cosmic Consciousness is no different than the Buddha's Enlightenment, or Universal Consciousness

These are all quite different, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

Can you now describe your own experience of cosmic consciousness? What is it actually like?

 

[godnotgod]

The Heart Sutra describes the emptiness of the 5 aggregates, emptiness being the absence of independent existence. I think you are reading too much into it. I think you are attached to a belief in "cosmic consciousness" and you are scrabbling around trying to validate it. That isn't the Zen approach, by the way.

Did you bother to read the commentary on the Heart Sutra? I repeat:

"When that level is attained, the mind comprehends the universe as the Self, and the Self, as the universe."

'That level' refers to the realization that the skandhas are empty of self, (ie; small 's') which is the state of Enlightenment, the level in which the mind comprehends the universe as the Self (big 'S').

This is not about belief, but about realization, a realization you must experience yourself for you to see its veracity. Stop thinking and focus on the content of what's being said here.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Stop thinking and focus on the content of what's being said here.

I would like you to stop thinking, and describe your personal experience of cosmic consciousness. What was it actually like?

 

[godnotgod]

What does that actually mean though? Obviously we're all part of the cosmos, but are you proposing the cosmos as one giant intelligence of which we are all aspects? Something like that?

The cosmos is the Supreme Self, projecting itself as the myriad universe, looking at itself through our eyes. To catch a glimpse of this, you need to put a stop to the discriminating mind and just see, without a see-er.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Did you bother to read the commentary on the Heart Sutra?

Have you bothered to study the Heart Sutra itself? Without having done that you won't understand the commentaries, of which there are many.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

To catch a glimpse of this, you need to put a stop to the discriminating mind and just see, without a see-er.

OK, so tell me how you have done this yourself. How did you put a stop to the discriminating mind? What was it like? How did you then experience cosmic consciousness?

 

[godnotgod]

It tells me you don't know how to debate or the way debate works. If you did you would realize your boasts shouldn't be boasts. I could sit here and tell you how dandelions are actually aliens but there is no way to verify it and you couldn't say anything to counter. Does that just mean I am the total OG gangsta of debate? Or does it make me a moron for trying to debate a topic that can't actually be debated because its a subjective personal opinion?

It's not. It's the opposite: an impersonal experience. It is beyond self, beyond 'I'. Is that comprehensible to you?

It can be verified, but it requires you cease and desist your insistence on factual evidence when you already know there is none to be had. You need to drop everything and go see for yourself. It is the only way. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. If you are not willing, that's OK, but you will always cling to Reason, Logic, and Analysis which is just baggage in the way.

 

[godnotgod]

OK, so tell me how you have done this yourself. How did you put a stop to the discriminating mind? What was it like? How did you then experience cosmic consciousness?

As a Theravadist, you meditate, correct? How do YOU subdue monkey mind?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is beyond self, beyond 'I'. Is that comprehensible to you?

It might be if you would describe your personal experience rather than these cliched generalities.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

As a Theravadist, you meditate, correct? How do YOU subdue monkey mind?

I have never seen anyone so determined to side-step and evade a question! It's like interviewing a dodgy politician! Why are you so reluctant to describe your personal experience?

Just tell us how you have experienced cosmic consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

Have you bothered to study the Heart Sutra itself? Without having done that you won't understand the commentaries, of which there are many.

Sir, I am referring to a very specific commentary, which states that the Self is none other than the universe, and vice versa. Why are you being so difficult? Do you, or do you not understand the simple commentary as presented? It's quite simple, really. Just reflect on it for awhile, and stop knee jerk reacting to what I have posted. Then when you have a better understanding of what the commentary is saying, please return and give me your input.

 

[godnotgod]

It might be if you would describe your personal experience rather than these cliched generalities.

Use your noggin: If it is beyond self; beyond I, then it cannot be personal, can it?

 

[godnotgod]

I have never seen anyone so determined to side-step and evade a question! It's like interviewing a dodgy politician! Why are you so reluctant to describe your personal experience?

Just tell us how you have experienced cosmic consciousness.

Once you have subdued monkey mind, you will know the answer. I have no candy for you today. However, if you look closely, you will find a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night.

I am pointing tens of fingers at the moon, but you insist on attacking my fingers rather than to take a look at the moon.

Go now, child, and sin no more.

 

[godnotgod]

I would like you to stop thinking, and describe your personal experience of cosmic consciousness. What was it actually like?

It's like:

'before Enlightenment, sweeping the floor;
after Enlightenment, sweeping the floor.'

I don't understand why you keep asking me for candy when you have a bag of it in your very own hand.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I am pointing tens of fingers at the moon, but you insist on attacking my fingers rather than to take a look at the moon.

Sorry but this is just pretentious twaddle, and patronising to boot. I thought you might have something meaningful to say, but it seems you don't. You are unable or unwilling to describe your personal experience of insight, instead you hide behind Zen-style cliches and new-age jargon with capital letters. Oh well.

 

[Looncall]

Sorry but this is just pretentious twaddle, and patronising to boot. I thought you might have something meaningful to say, but it seems you don't. You are unable or unwilling to describe your personal experience of insight, instead you hide behind Zen-style cliches and new-age jargon with capital letters. Oh well.

Very well put.

He seems to think that he can insist on something as fact without providing evidence for it. It is hilarious that he thinks he can pass off his delusions to others.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's not. It's the opposite: an impersonal experience. It is beyond self, beyond 'I'. Is that comprehensible to you?

It can be verified, but it requires you cease and desist your insistence on factual evidence when you already know there is none to be had. You need to drop everything and go see for yourself. It is the only way. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. If you are not willing, that's OK, but you will always cling to Reason, Logic, and Analysis which is just baggage in the way.

So lets abandon facts and then I can agree with you? Do you understand what that sounds like?

 

[Straw Dog]

What about them? All of that is transcended in the state of higher consciousness. You are referring to the Third Level of Consciousness, that of Identification. Higher Consciousness is the awakening into the Fourth Level (Self-Transcendence) and beyond.

[QUOTE="godnotgod, post:4086674, member: 19325]Consciousness is that state of awareness in which no attempt is made to grasp or define what it knows. Consciousness is about seeing, while mind is about thinking.

Seeing via consciousness is direct insight into the true nature of reality. The true nature of Reality is found everywhere. It is everywhere in the universe, and within all things, including man. It is universal. So the insight into the true nature of Reality is itself Universal Consciousness. The Hindus express it as:

'The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere',

and

'Tas tvam asi' (Thou art That)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing! I shall meditate upon these matters.