Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[godnotgod]

That's fine as far as our consciousness is concerned, but it certainly doesn't at all deal with "cosmic consciousness" whereas some make the claim that it is just this that started our universe and supposedly permeates it.

All consciousness is universal. It's just that the mind sculpts it into an illusory personal view, ie; 'MY mind'.

Science tells us that space-time began at the moment of the Big Bang. If that is the case, space-time was non-existent prior to that moment. Therefore, the BB was an event outside of space-time. Can you think of a condition or state existing outside of time and space? What would that be?

 

[YmirGF]

BTW, how exactly can one actually experience "cosmic consciousness" unless they've actually traveled everywhere throughout the entire cosmos?

That is the point I was trying to make that seems to have flown right over our Perfect Master's empty, thoughtless, head. When pondering the enormity of this universe, let alone considering the fact it may be one of billions of other universes, using words like "cosmic" rings a tad hollow. Granted, at first, the experience DOES seem to be cosmic when compared with normal consciousness, but calling it cosmic, as if it really were, is a few shades beyond the pale.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Granted, at first, the experience DOES seem to be cosmic when compared with normal consciousness, but calling it cosmic, as if it really were, is a few shades beyond the pale.

I can look at the Andromeda galaxy through my telescope, but it's not the same as being there.

 

[metis]

You are already there. You experience it right where you are. Why should Reality be different here from there? I am not referring to personal viewpoints of reality, but to the nature of Reality itself. It's the same everywhere. That's why it can be called 'Universal'.

A belief in CC will get you in contact with other believers, and you can go round and round in circles in your heads. Or you can shuck your beliefs and go try to find out for yourself. If you decide on the latter path, be informed that you are now playing the Master Game, which is the most difficult life game to play, requiring all your effort and attention. The goal of the Master Game is Spiritual Awakening. You can, of course, choose to remain asleep, and join other sleeping people at Starbucks. If they're Christians, you can join them in the dark, shouting to lend comfort to one another.

So, what I'm picking up from the above is that there really isn't anything that can be gained. If one meditates and works on understanding dharma (or whatever one wants to call it), then no doubt a certain amount of enlightenment should occur, but this is certainly not dependent upon blindly accepting "cosmic consciousness".

Secondly, as far as my supposedly missing out on "Spiritual Awakening" and "remaining asleep", I would suggest that judging others indicates to me at least that you are very far from having either, preferring instead to blindly accepting an attachment ("cosmic consciousness") whereas there's literally no indication that you've been able to establish after many requests to provide indications that such a thing exists.

And there's literally no way you can ascertain that I'm somehow devoid of "Spiritual Awakening", especially since you cannot even define "spirit", as you were asked to define and failed in earlier posts. At least a great many people are well aware to "judge ye not' because we do not know what goes on even in our innermost minds let alone those of others.

So, I guess I'll gladly join my Christian friends at Starbucks because at least they make sense even if I disagree with many of the things they believe. BTW, I really don't have really any beliefs to "shuck" in this arena (remember my many "I don't know" responses?), but you sure and the heck do, and they seem to be largely imaginary.

Therefore, from what I can gather, your "cosmic consciousness" really doesn't seem to be helping you much at all, instead it appears to be leading you down the dark path of formulating unfounded attachments that are virtually unverifiable.

Maybe try some different approaches, and maybe you will find something that does help lead to greater enlightenment.

 

[metis]

All consciousness is universal.

Please provide even one shred of evidence for this. As a belief, no problem; as a supposed fact, a major problem.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't understand why people expect the higher intelligence to be like our lower intelligence. I think it is like them saying a dog should understand how it's master thinks. I am sure lower won't meet higher until it becomes higher. We know for a fact lower resists becoming higher. It is only those who won't resist it that might, can or will join it.

My Lord, who is one who became higher intelligence, says "they took no note". People say he meant they took no note of the lower intelligence (that which causes God's war) but of course he meant they take no note of what is able to prevent God's war. They resist joining with the highest order of intelligence. The reasons are probably many. The fear of falling is one reason.

Tell me if the following is not an accurate description of what you see on this forum:

Waking Sleep

The third state of consciousness is experienced when man awakens from physical sleep and plunges at once into the condition called "identification", or 'waking sleep.'

For many people, this concept of waking sleep makes no sense at all. They firmly maintain that,
once they "wake up," they are responsible beings, masters of themselves, fully conscious, and that anyone who tells them that they are not is a fool or a liar. It is almost impossible to convince such people that they are deceiving themselves because, when a man is told that he is not really conscious, a mechanism is activated within him which awakens him for a moment. He replies, indignantly, "But I am fully conscious," and because of this "trick of Nature" as Ouspensky used to call it, he does become conscious for a moment. He moves from the third room to the threshold of the fourth room, answers the challenge, and at once goes to sleep again, firmly convinced that he is a fully awakened being.

So, in the Myth of the Mad King, it makes no difference how often the king's ministers tell him that he is living in the cellar instead of his palace. He will reply, and really believe his reply, that the cellar is his palace and that they are the mad ones for suggesting that it is not.

It was exactly this reaction that Plato described in his account of the prisoners in the cave (which is actually a variant of the Myth of the Mad King). Suppose, says Plato in his Republic,
that one of the prisoners in the cave, whose only impression of reality is derived from watching
shadows on the walls, escapes into the world outside. Suppose he is of an altruistic disposition and returns to tell the other prisoners of the bright and varied world that lies beyond their prison. Suppose he announces that all things they have ever seen are merely shadows. Will they welcome that message? Not likely!

There will certainly be laughter at his expense and it will be said that the only result of his escapade up there is that he has come back with his eyesight ruined. Moral: it's a fool's game even to make the attempt to go up aloft; and as for the busybody who goes in for all the liberating and translating to higher spheres, if ever we have a chance to catch and kill him we will certainly take it.

The fact is that man in the third state of consciousness is in a situation from which it is hard to
escape. He does not recognize the state as waking sleep, does not understand the meaning of
identification. If anyone tells him that he is not fully conscious, he replies that he is conscious and, by the "trick of Nature," becomes conscious for a moment. He is like a man surrounded by
distorting mirrors which offer him an image of himself that in no way corresponds to reality.

Furthermore, this sleeping man is surrounded by other sleeping people and the whole culture in which he lives serves to perpetuate that state of sleep. Its ethics, morality, value systems are all based on the idea that it is lawful and desirable for man to spend his life in the third room rather than in a struggle to enter the fourth. Teachings that exhort men to awaken, to adopt a system of values based on levels of being rather than material possessions are distrusted.

excerpted from: The Master Game, by Robert S DeRopp

 

[godnotgod]

Please provide even one shred of evidence for this. As a belief, no problem; as a supposed fact, a major problem.

For you, maybe.
What makes you see personal consciousness as something real?

 

[metis]

For you, maybe.
What makes you see personal consciousness as something real?

Because if I didn't have it, then what am I doing responding to you? Secondly, e.e.g.'s and m.r.i.'s can tell if one is conscious, and the latter is now sophisticated enough to even determine which mood the subject is in.

So, when you are able to give our entire cosmos an e.e.g. or m.r.i., please make sure you let me know, OK?

 

[Straw Dog]

What do I think the consciousness is that we are talking about? It is the awareness of what is really real or the having of knowledge. I believe knowledge exists apart from matter. I have said that maybe the brain developed to house something that already existed. Not the other way around. It is assumed the brain creates knowledge. I think knowledge creates brains.

Maybe. Who knows?

 

[godnotgod]

Oddly, I sense quite a healthy ego in your posts. Obviously, I'm wrong on that, as you are the Perfect Master playing the Master Game.

Is there a mocking pack of hyenas somewhere in the vicinity?

 

[godnotgod]

Because if I didn't have it, then what am I doing responding to you?

Who, or what, is it that is responding?

Can you answer my other question: 'Can you think of a condition or state existing outside of time and space? What would that be?'

 

[Straw Dog]

A Zen Master would never even consider doing that. That is a ridiculous notion. Adepts might indulge, but not a true Zen Master.

Cosmic consciousness transcends both subject and object. That is why it can be called cosmic consciousness. It is not an experience one sees via one's personal viewpoint. It is a universal viewpoint, and because mind is not involved, neither is thinking. If thinking is not involved, where is the possibility for semantic distortion?

What about subconscious thinking that evades awareness? What about cultural and personal preconceptions that we are conditioned with?

[QUOTE="godnotgod, post:4086674, member: 19325]Consciousness is that state of awareness in which no attempt is made to grasp or define what it knows. Consciousness is about seeing, while mind is about thinking.[/QUOTE]

The mind is literally about thinking. The eyes are literally for seeing. Could you use a different word for what consciousness is about that is technically unique to itself rather than metaphorical or borrowing terms from other senses?

 

[metis]

Who, or what, is it that is responding?

Can you answer my other question: 'Can you think of a condition or state existing outside of time and space? What would that be?'

To the first question, I have no desire to play little games with you on this, and to the second question, no I cannot, although I recognize the hypothetical possibility that there could be something, but who could possibly know what that might be?

 

[savagewind]

Tell me if the following is not an accurate description of what you see on this forum:

Yes. There are very few people who I am sure aren't asleep. On another forum I said there are people like zombies and people like vampires and the people reading it crucified me. Haha. They even made me cry. BUT I won't sleep as they do so I had to think of something to do to feel better. I live near the ocean and I suppose we all are somewhat asleep as I do not think of going there. That day I did. I sat on the cliff and saw a show on the water that will never be forgotten. It was an amazing show of light shining off the breaking water. This way and that way it would go. It certainly looked intelligent. I would not have seen that most beatiful thing had they not been so rude

I am pretty sure no one would be so borish if they were truly conscious.

It is less obvious to me on this forum that people's consciousness sleeps. But I think you are a genius so you probably see a lot more than I do. Can we know your gender please?

 

[godnotgod]

So, what I'm picking up from the above is that there really isn't anything that can be gained. If one meditates and works on understanding dharma (or whatever one wants to call it), then no doubt a certain amount of enlightenment should occur, but this is certainly not dependent upon blindly accepting "cosmic consciousness".

There is nothing to gain. All gaining ideas are only obstacles. You already have what you need. You just haven't realized it yet.

You cannot attain enlightenment. You already are enlightened. Everyone is.

CC is not a belief or doctrine you accept or reject. It is simply the realization that you are at one with the universe.

If you fall asleep in a hot tub, and then awaken, there is an immediate and unmistakable realization that you will find yourself immersed in water. It is not a matter of opinion or belief or even acceptance. It's just the situation you find yourself in.

IOW, you are already fully integrated into the cosmos, mind and body. There is no separate observer of the cosmos. That is purely an illusion.

 

[godnotgod]

To the first question, I have no desire to play little games with you on this, and to the second question, no I cannot, although I recognize the hypothetical possibility that there could be something, but who could possibly know what that might be?

If you are not willing to answer the first question, then I cannot show you the illusion of a personal view.

Something outside of space-time must exist, if we are to accept the view that space-time began with the BB, correct? If the theory of space-time is correct, then what I am referring is not a hypothesis, but a reality.

 

[metis]

There is nothing to gain. All gaining ideas are only obstacles. You already have what you need. You just haven't realized it yet.

You cannot attain enlightenment. You already are enlightened. Everyone is.

CC is not a belief or doctrine you accept or reject. It is simply the realization that you are at one with the universe.

If you fall asleep in a hot tub, and then awaken, there is an immediate and unmistakable realization that you will find yourself immersed in water. It is not a matter of opinion or belief or even acceptance. It's just the situation you find yourself in.

IOW, you are already fully integrated into the cosmos, mind and body. There is no separate observer of the cosmos. That is purely an illusion.

I am very familiar with this concept, except that if one really does much serious contemplative meditation on it, I'm convinced that the more they'll realize that it doesn't make sense. Some here may consider me arrogant, but I certainly don't make any claim whatsoever that this enlightenment is all somehow magically inside me already. I've been accused of having lots of something inside me, but full enlightenment is not one of them.

Secondly, the interconnectness of all I have had not one single problem accepting, but that's really "quite elementary, my dear Watson".

 

[metis]

If you are not willing to answer the first question, then I cannot show you the illusion of a personal view.

I'm very familiar with this concept, so there's simply no need for me or you to get into it. In regards to "personal view", a specific view may or may not be illusionary, and if it were, then why are you even posting here?

Something outside of space-time must exist, if we are to accept the view that space-time began with the BB, correct? If the theory of space-time is correct, then what I am referring is not a hypothesis, but a reality.

There should be no assumption of such either way, and both cosmologists and physicists know that this cannot be verified one way or another. Especially when dealing with the possibility of us being in a multiverse, along with the possibility of causal factors going back into infinity, there's simply no way we can assume one way or another.

Most cosmologists that I have read believe it's likely that there were events that preceded the BB, btw. So, time as we know it quite possibly started at the BB because of Relativity, but time itself likely didn't-- it's just that it moved so very slowly that it would be pretty much unobservable.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Except that the experience has nothing to do with what is in the head. The head is empty.

See? Its hard not to come off as hot air. Bringing meaning to your words without evidence is a skill and a talent that most of us do not have.

You will never be able to convince me or anyone else that your experiences are legitimate if they run counter to the evidence and simply saying things doesn't make them so. Which is more or less why I don't engage you in debates anymore.

 

[metis]

What makes this all so "exciting" is that beliefs such as "cosmic consciousness" and most religious beliefs, are virtually unfalsifiable, therefore they persist. Logically, how would one go about somehow finding evidence that either doesn't exist? But then neither is there any objective evidence for them, so why should I have a belief one way or another?

I've gotten quite use to not knowing answers over my rather vintage 69 years.