Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[YmirGF]

Swans don't quack, they honk.

One can carry the analogy a tad far.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That one consciousness for me is reflective of the One Consciousness that we would consider to be God.

So could you describe your personal experience of this "One Consciousness" - what was it actually like?

 

[savagewind]

So could you describe your personal experience of this "One Consciousness" - what was it actually like?

I think the question isn't proper with the past tense verb.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think the question isn't proper with the past tense verb.

It might be, in any case I'd be interested in the response.

 

[Robert.Evans]

As have been charlatans...

Tut tut!

 

[Robert.Evans]

Swans don't quack, they honk.

That was funny, I don't know why.

 

[godnotgod]

Absurdity on steroids, as per usual, godnotgod. There are some so-called "mystics" that I hold in great esteem, not the ones you seem to think are meaningful, but nonetheless. Sadly, the field is a veritable flock of quacks, amongst whom, the swans are rarely recogmized.

Back to the fact of their longevity, which I translate as stability. Science is the new kid on the block, relatively speaking. But in general, the latest outcropping of mystics, warts and all, represents two developments: a rejection of materialism, and another step in the evolution of man. In fact, it is a signpost that the first phase of man's evolution is now over, and a new phase has begun. Best get onboard, lest ye be left in the Museum of Evolutionary Dead Ends, LOL

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think quite a lot of people will have had experiences which they regard as spiritual, I've had them myself and I'm not questioning their validity.

What I am questioning is the way some people here are making all sorts of assumptions based on such experiences. I am puzzled by the reluctance to describe those experiences in a personal way, and to explain what it was about those experiences that led them to start talking about a Cosmic Consciousness, or One Consciousness, or various alternative new-age labels.

The impression I have is that some people here are starting out with beliefs and assumptions, and then interpreting their experiences to justify those beliefs, rather than keeping an open mind about what those experiences might really represent.

 

[savagewind]

It might be, in any case I'd be interested in the response.

I am not substituting for the poster to whom you asked it but I have an idea I shall share. The question "What was [sic] it like?"

The brain is able to dwell on the past, present and future. Most brains dwell on each in a balanced way. But when most brains dwell on the present it is usually in relation to one of the other two. If you can break away from your past and your future to dwell on the present with all your might, that is what it is like.

I have an example. Psalms 23:1 says "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want". Some silly people have said 'I shall not want' means God will provide enough so that the person believing won't want for anything. I don't think that is what it means. WANT is the brain dwelling in the future and want is selfish.
It certainly is about The Lord providing a person with a life worth living but it means it will happen for the person who lives in the present. It is related to "let God's will be done". God knows what is needed for each one in the present. The past is done and the future might not even come so a person is happiest who esteems the present. The present is where Cosmic Consciousness is strongest, willing and able to elevate a person's ego but if the person's ego is selfish it can't be elevated. Why not? Because it will demean someone else's willingness to be elevated. Of course no one is able to cut themselves off from ALL selfishness. What remains is what The Lord forgives. But God can't forgive it if it is on purpose. If you believe it is possible then please tell me how. Thank you.

 

[godnotgod]

The development of physics is one of my favorite topics. It doesn't lend you any credibility though.

Me? What do I have to do with it? But if you mean the mystical view, yes, it actually does confirm many of the things mystics have said for centuries. However, Michio Kaku seems to feels physics is having a nervous breakdown:

'NATURE IS SMARTER THAN WE ARE!' I LOVE IT!

The reason why things are always being updated is because our understanding is always increasing. Its a good thing. We have now meaningful understanding of our universe in ways that mystics have never been able to bring us. Maybe mystics have certain points but none of them are really relevant.

Correction: updating occurs because new facts are discovered. Science has zero understanding as to the true nature of Reality, and has made zero progress in this area. Mystics have nailed it long ago. The relevance of their observations translates to supreme happiness. We call that happiness 'divine union', 'Enlightenment', etc. Science has always been OK with mystics. No problem. But the bottom line is this: mystics have the cart properly placed behind the horse, unlike science.

And crocodiles longer than humans. Perhaps we should go to them for the answers? Or perhaps archaic means are not the most accurate ones.

You're talking rubbish now.

Thank you for the strict idea of debate. This is what we are here for. There is a mystics only forum I think where people can discuss the intricacies within individuals who already accept mysticism as being legitimate. Which is why I have such a hard time with the arguments because I get locked into a battle about the legitimacy of what you base your arguments on. And what you base your arguments on cannot be defended in strict debate that I attempt to have. The same I think with some others on occasion.

So, just as an example, how would you begin, under strict rules and a scientific approach, begin to answer the thread's question?

The mystics approach is to begin right where we are, and that is what is already evident, which is consciousness. We are conscious by default. We are fully integrated into the universe, which we also see as conscious and intelligent. It is so much simpler than mucking about with mathematics and dissection and test tubes and billion dollar cyclotrons, only to arrive....where? In more paradox than ever before.

In your own beliefs, more power to you. I don't mind you believing whatever it is you believe but it was in the contexts of the debate that I have had these issues.

Maybe your rules are far too rigid, for one thing. In fact, I would say that is why you come up with a dead, material-only universe. Doesn't that strike you as rather ridiculous? You can't see past the framework, because it dictates how you think, rather than having an open view of Reality so you can see things as they actually are.

Once again, the mystical view is not based on the mind, and therefore, not based on thinking. Not being based on thinking, it cannot be a belief, as you think it is. It is based on seeing into the nature of things. The pathway is intuitive, not rational. And that is why you are having 'issues'. Your view is simply too one-sided. What is actually required is a balanced view, where logic transforms intuition, and vice versa, in a Yin Yang harmony. From what I've read about Einstein, he had this kind of view, to a certain extent, which drove some of his discoveries.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The present is where Cosmic Consciousness is strongest, willing and able to elevate a person's ego but if the person's ego is selfish it can't be elevated.

OK, that's a familiar idea, but can you describe your personal experience of this? What has been your own experience of "Cosmic Consciousness". What was it actually like?

 

[savagewind]

OK, that's a familiar idea, but can you describe your personal experience of this? What has been your own experience of "Cosmic Consciousness". What was it actually like?

It is being in the present and the present has a personality. It is intelligent. What is it like to in the presence of a powerful ruling person? I don't know what that is like. But to experience "Cosmic Consciousness" is to be in the presence of the most powerful ruling um entity (there is probably no right word for it in English) of all. It takes some getting used to.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But to experience "Cosmic Consciousness" is to be in the presence of the most powerful ruling um entity (there is probably no right word for it in English) of all.

OK, but how have you experienced that presence - what was it actually like?

 

[apophenia]

One can carry the analogy a tad far.

It's a swan-eat-swan world

 

[Robert.Evans]

OK, but how have you experienced that presence - what was it actually like?

I think you misunderstand what is being said here. How do YOU experience anything? Everything being Consciousness is not something you experience any different than anyone else, it is an understanding.

 

[godnotgod]

I think quite a lot of people will have had experiences which they regard as spiritual, I've had them myself and I'm not questioning their validity.

What I am questioning is the way some people here are making all sorts of assumptions based on such experiences. I am puzzled by the reluctance to describe those experiences in a personal way, and to explain what it was about those experiences that led them to start talking about a Cosmic Consciousness, or One Consciousness, or various alternative new-age labels.

The impression I have is that some people here are starting out with beliefs and assumptions, and then interpreting their experiences to justify those beliefs, rather than keeping an open mind about what those experiences might really represent.

I know that is what you think, but you are guilty of exactly the thing you accuse others of.

First, drop the attacks on the New Age people. Cosmic Consciousness, and Universal Consciousness are NOT new age! OK? What you need to understand is that what you call 'new age' is in general a movement away from the old paradigms (ie authoritarian religion and materialist science) because they fail to provide spiritual nourishment. They are dead systems. Take notice that the 'new' movements are pretty much all feminine/mystically based: Zen, Yoga, New Age, Wicca, Gnositicism, Taoism, Sufism, etc. This is no accident. It is the feminine side of consciousness that opens the door to spiritual nourishment. (Read especially the Tao te Ching to confirm this). The old patriarchal systems are concerned with The Law and Obedience to The Law, but that is not enough to provide happiness. By opening the door to the feminine, the masculine will then flesh out and make sense. By itself, it is a rigid, meaningless skeleton.

Secondly, Cosmic, or Universal Consciousness is none other than the realization that we live in a living, conscious universe. I have already provided two examples from Buddhist thought that unmistakably point to consciousness being the world. It is exactly this realization that people are waking up to, after centuries of it having been suppressed by religious dogma, and now scientific materialism. But just know that the cat is now out of the bag and there is no way it is going back. What is happening is that people are developing a new vision of the universe, in which science and spiritualism are understood as in a unified view. IOW, as Vivekanda has said, they are discovering that:

'The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And by the way, using capital letters for something, eg "Cosmic Consciousness" doesn't make it any more credible or valid.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Secondly, Cosmic, or Universal Consciousness is none other than the realization that we live in a living, conscious universe.

Another monologue of vague new-age generalities, but yet again you have failed to describe your personal experience of this cosmic consciousness thingy.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Me? What do I have to do with it? But if you mean the mystical view, yes, it actually does confirm many of the things mystics have said for centuries. However, Michio Kaku seems to feels physics is having a nervous breakdown:

'NATURE IS SMARTER THAN WE ARE!' I LOVE IT!



Correction: updating occurs because new facts are discovered. Science has zero understanding as to the true nature of Reality, and has made zero progress in this area. Mystics have nailed it long ago. The relevance of their observations translates to supreme happiness. We call that happiness 'divine union', 'Enlightenment', etc. Science has always been OK with mystics. No problem. But the bottom line is this: mystics have the cart properly placed behind the horse, unlike science.



You're talking rubbish now.



So, just as an example, how would you begin, under strict rules and a scientific approach, begin to answer the thread's question?

The mystics approach is to begin right where we are, and that is what is already evident, which is consciousness. We are conscious by default. We are fully integrated into the universe, which we also see as conscious and intelligent. It is so much simpler than mucking about with mathematics and dissection and test tubes and billion dollar cyclotrons, only to arrive....where? In more paradox than ever before.



Maybe your rules are far too rigid, for one thing. In fact, I would say that is why you come up with a dead, material-only universe. Doesn't that strike you as rather ridiculous? You can't see past the framework, because it dictates how you think, rather than having an open view of Reality so you can see things as they actually are.

Once again, the mystical view is not based on the mind, and therefore, not based on thinking. Not being based on thinking, it cannot be a belief, as you think it is. It is based on seeing into the nature of things. The pathway is intuitive, not rational. And that is why you are having 'issues'. Your view is simply too one-sided. What is actually required is a balanced view, where logic transforms intuition, and vice versa, in a Yin Yang harmony. From what I've read about Einstein, he had this kind of view, to a certain extent, which drove some of his discoveries.

Thanks for the YT link. Kaku is good I think. He was brought with the eastern thinking of faith, so it is still within him. You could see though that blackholes really really bother him.... haha

 

[godnotgod]

And by the way, using capital letters for something, eg "Cosmic Consciousness" doesn't make it any more credible or valid.

Man, are you ever missing something!