Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

It might be possible a person has attained enlightenment but doesn't know it. It is called blindness. It is not physical blindness. It is mental.

 

[Midnight Rain]

It might be possible a person has attained enlightenment but doesn't know it. It is called blindness. It is not physical blindness. It is mental.

That is contradictory. Enlightenment literally means "to know" and to "know" but "not know that one knows" seems as if that would disqualify them for the title of enlightened.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Personally, I smell the fetid thinking of Bhagwan Shree Rashneesh 2.0, ooops, sorry, "Osho" behind a lot of this drivel.

Yes, could be! Personally it doesn't bother me which teacher people want to follow, what does bother me here is the relentless misrepresentation of other traditions like Buddhism. There's a lot of arrogance behind that.

 

[YmirGF]

It might be possible a person has attained enlightenment but doesn't know it. It is called blindness. It is not physical blindness. It is mental.

Hogwash. Pretending it all out of existence is another thing entirely. Sort of like how godnotgod is pretending things into existence. Hope this helps.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, could be! Personally it doesn't bother me which teacher people want to follow, what does bother me here is the relentless misrepresentation of other traditions like Buddhism. There's a lot of arrogance behind that.

It explains the mish-mash or muddle that you have described on many occasions. Taking the so-called "teachings" of a discredited "guru" who was so vilified that he had to reinvent himself into another personality altogether, while fleeing half way around the world because 20 countries would not give him sanctuary, probably isn't going to work so well.

After leaving the U.S., Rajneesh returned to India, after numerous countries refused him entry. He landed in Delhi on 17 November 1985. He was given a hero's welcome by his Indian disciples and denounced the United States, saying the world must "put the monster America in its place" and "either America must be hushed up or America will be the end of the world".[142] He stayed for six weeks in Himachal Pradesh. When non-Indians in his party had their visas revoked, he moved on to Kathmandu, Nepal and a few weeks later to Crete. Arrested after a few days by the Greek Intelligence Service (KYP), he flew to Geneva, Stockholm and London Heathrow Airport; however, in each case he was refused entry. When Canada refused him permission to land, his plane returned to Shannon airport in Ireland to refuel. He was allowed to stay for two weeks at a hotel in Limerick, on the condition that he did not go out or give talks. Osho had been granted a Uruguayan identity card, a one-year provisional residency and the possibility of permanent residency so the party set out, stopping at Madrid (where the plane was surrounded by the Guardia Civil). He was allowed to spend one night in Dakar before continuing to Recife and Montevideo. In Uruguay the group moved into a house in Punta del Este; Osho began speaking publicly until 19 June, when he was "invited to leave" for no official reason. A two-week visa was arranged for Jamaica, but upon his arrival in Kingston the police gave his group 12 hours to leave. Refuelling in Gander and Madrid, Osho returned to Bombay on 30 July 1986.[143][144]

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Cosmic Consciousness has its origins in the EAST

Which eastern tradition first came up with the idea of "cosmic consciousness" then? Obviously you will be able to properly reference this assertion.

Again we have the appeal to ancient mysticism here. But it doesn't make your idea of cosmic consciousness any more credible.

And we are still waiting for a detailed account of your personal experience of spiritual insight.

 

[YmirGF]

Which eastern tradition first came up with the idea of "cosmic consciousness" then? Obviously you will be able to properly reference this assertion.

If I am not wrong, the term first cropped up in a work by my fellow Canadian, Maurice Burke in his 1901 book, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind".

In fairness to godnotgod, he was from Eastern Canada. So, you could say it came from the "east".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Maurice Burke in his 1901 book, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind".

"Cosmic consciousness, a consciousness of the life and order of the universe which is possessed by few men at present. It is a further stage of human evolution which will be reached by all humanity in the future."

So there's hope for the rest of us then.

 

[YmirGF]

"Cosmic consciousness, a consciousness of the life and order of the universe which is possessed by few men at present. It is a further stage of human evolution which will be reached by all humanity in the future."

So there's hope for the rest of us then.

Once we drop our attachment to potato peels...

One can almost imagine the quote from from Locutus of Borg...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Consciousness is self-evident, and because no finite self is self-evident, it is non-local, which simply means it is universal.

So has non-local consciousness been proved or is it really just new-age wishful thinking? Let's see some evidence.

And what on earth do you mean by the statement "no finite self is self-evident"? It doesn't make sense.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The key here is that Enlightenment is an event outside of Time and Space. I

Prove it. Stop making these bland claims without any support for them.

Are you claiming to be enlightened?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It being a personal experience conflicts with the Buddha's teachings of anatta.

Explain how exactly. Show me a sutta that supports the claim that Nibbana is anything other than an individual experience.

Tell what you think anatta means.

Are you claiming to be enlightened?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have been saying that the universe itself is intelligence, as per Vivekenanda:

Please properly reference this claim.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No evidence of materiality. It cannot be contained, measured, observed, or otherwise tested in the same manner as other material. It's presence can only be detected by itself.

Which makes it distinctly unreliable in terms of verification and therefor knowledge claims.

I will say it again: mysticism simply means inner union with the divine nature, and that's all I've ever meant. How others see it and respond to it is the distortion.

whatever you say. Its no longer even entertaining at this point.

So far, Aristotle seems to be in agreement with Plato, in that the cave wall shadows represent reality and so does Aristotle's perceptual reality, which, according to you, provides an imperfect image. I am using Plato's metaphor of the Sun to represent actual, or Ultimate Reality. How does Aristotle use the Sun metaphor?

If you feel Aristotle is in agreement with Plato then you need to go back and study again. In fact I would go back and study Plato more than you currently have and then read up on Aristotle's critique of Plato.

Aristotle removes the concept of a sun image. He works mainly in the material and shows us WHY Plato's cave doesn't have to be the truth and how we can have individuals or substance even though we only see their qualities. There is no "sun" shining the qualities onto the substance but is an innate property of the substance itself. There is no sun. There is no "higher reality".

Because it can be directly experienced. The evidence of its veracity is found in the fact that practitioners who have experienced it corroborate each others experience, and at different times in history. The Hindus express this universality via: 'the saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere'

So we have the word of some guy. Great. And the funny thing is that the saltiness metaphor is actually innacurate. The saltiness of the sea is not the same everywhere.

But I am not arguing that intelligence is required to order the universe. I have been saying that the universe itself is intelligence, as per Vivekenanda:

'The universe IS the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

So are you denying that we can have a universe without universal intelligence? And that the way we define intelligence doesn't match up at all with the way you seem to imply?

Consciousness is self-evident, and because no finite self is self-evident, it is non-local, which simply means it is universal. Even were a finite self called 'I' to be located and isolated, it cannot encapsulate non-material consciousness.

Why do you believe that there cannot be a self evident finite self? The universe as a whole is more than likely finite to some degree and for it to be self evident would require your statement to be false.

But you didn't answer the question: how does the material brain create non-material consciousness?

And I asked in return "why do you think consciousness is immaterial?"

 

[Monk Of Reason]

He was addressing the question of validity.

And so was I.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

the historical references I provided earlier pointed to the non-New Age phrase 'Cosmic Consciousness' as being one and the same as Universal Consciousness originating in the East.

You have shown nothing of the sort.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

YOUR consciousness is fixated on the jerk of your knee.

Personal insults only further diminish your credibility.

I ask again, are you claiming to be enlightened?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...eons ahead of the resident fake Bodhisattva.

These insults only further diminish your credibility.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Well, is it?

Don't you know?

 

[savagewind]

That is contradictory. Enlightenment literally means "to know" and to "know" but "not know that one knows" seems as if that would disqualify them for the title of enlightened.

Yes it means to know. I agree. But know what? Everything? Of course not. I shall tell you. It means to know the self relative to all time. Did you hear what I said? When it happens it effects the person before and after. Enlightenment is like a flash of light that reaches to conception and to death. It doesn't originate at conception because the person must find it before it takes over. Babies can't find it. Children probably can.