Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sorry .. more damned lies and statistics.
You are ignoring other factors altogether .. such as poverty.

Compare the US with high religiosity, to other secular democracies with low religiosity.

Poverty has nothing to do with it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Jesus is reported to have said "For the rich man to enter the kingdom of God, is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle"

This is neither here nore there.

It is completely unrelated to societal health statistics.

Also: I guess all them rich republicans and conservatives didn't get that memo

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I would have thought it obvious.
You said statistics prove that religious localities lead to worse health outcomes.

I said that you have forgotten that richer localities are not as religious.
Go figure!

For the record: I said societal health. Not just "health".

Societies with higher levels of religiosity do worse then similar societies with lower religiosity.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is that a bad suggestion?
I don't think so.

..and don't quote US as a whole nation, please .. because it is strongly divided.
It may be the richest nation, but income varies wildly.

Religiosity, however, doesn't varry as wildly.
There is no correlation there.

 

[muhammad_isa]

For the record: I said societal health. Not just "health".

Societies with higher levels of religiosity do worse then similar societies with lower religiosity.

OK

You said "Such statistics clearly demonstrate that having more religion does not, in any way, lead to a society with less crime or higher morality."

It does not show that religion itself, is to blame for crime or morality..
Oppressed people are likely to be more aggressive.

 

[1213]

And why can't you do it?

Probably because I don't know enough.

 

[Heyo]

Probably because I don't know enough.

That has become clear. You don't know enough about the laws of physics to answer that question. And by that, of course, you are also incompetent to decide if something is magical or in line with the laws of physics.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Probably because I don't know enough.

Here it is as simple as it is. If I say something, it means I can say it, but it doesn't mean I can do it otherwise. But that is also so in practice for other people and that applies to us all.
Unless you can actually show it other than just saying it.

 

[Audie]

Probably because I don't know enough.

Now try applying that to other topics
you know nothing about

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Now try applying that topics you where you do
clai. Knowledge.

And then learn the limits of even knowledge. Because they are there.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If Bob the christian gets drunk and lays with whores, he is sinning and disobeying god

.......

If Bill the atheist gets drunk and lays with whores, he is....?

Kind of a moron if he doesn’t use protection.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

OK

You said "Such statistics clearly demonstrate that having more religion does not, in any way, lead to a society with less crime or higher morality."

It does not show that religion itself, is to blame for crime or morality..

The claim being discussed here comes from theists claiming that such societies WOULD have less crime or higher morality.
But what we see is the opposite correlation being true.

I don't know if it is a causal link or not and it doesn't matter.
The claim is that there should be a causal link and that the result would be less crime / higher morals.
But we see the opposite. Therefor = claim is false.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The claim being discussed here comes from theists claiming that such societies WOULD have less crime or higher morality.
But what we see is the opposite correlation being true.

I don't know if it is a causal link or not and it doesn't matter.
The claim is that there should be a causal link and that the result would be less crime / higher morals.
But we see the opposite. Therefor = claim is false.

You see what you want to see.
Is theft prevalent in countries that have Islamic law?
I think not.

 

[ChristineM]

You see what you want to see.
Is theft prevalent in countries that have Islamic law?
I think not.

Chopping off the hand thst steals tends to be a bit of a deterrent.

And of course you can say the same of any authoritarian country.

Just a quick observation, muslim countries tend to employ twice the number of police officers as other countries and still kidnapping seems to be twice as prevalent in Muslim countries than elsewhere

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just a quick observation, muslim countries tend to employ twice the number of police officers as other countries and still kidnapping seems to be twice as prevalent in Muslim countries than elsewhere

There is certainly a lot of problems in Muslim majority countries, I would agree.
..but do they all have Islamic law? No.

 

[ChristineM]

There is certainly a lot of problems in Muslim majority countries, I would agree.
..but do they all have Islamic law? No.

Talking of sharia law, any country that requires twice as much evidence in court from a woman compared to a man is still in the dark ages.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Talking of sharia law, any country that requires twice as much evidence in court from a woman compared to a man is still in the dark ages.

..and that is why there is so much trouble in the world.
..because the world is dominated by the West politically since the WW's.
The squabbling will never end until..

 

[ChristineM]

..and that is why there is so much trouble in the world.
..because the world is dominated by the West politically since the WW's.
The squabbling will never end until..

It was not the west that flew planes into the twin towers.

And islam does its fair share of "squabbling" between shia and sunny

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You see what you want to see.

No. The numbers show what they show. Not what I want them to show.

Is theft prevalent in countries that have Islamic law?
I think not.

Societal health indexes are a combination of a broad range of number, reflecting general quality of life of the average citizen.
Countries with islamic law score notoriously low on all of them, btw..

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is certainly a lot of problems in Muslim majority countries, I would agree.
..but do they all have Islamic law? No.

So which one would you hold up as a blueprint example that world should follow?
Name this country which uses your approved version of Islamic Law and where the societal health index is through the roof?

This seems to be a mythical land, because I can't see it any where in the top 10 lists.
First islamic middle eastern nation on the rankings seems to be Kuwait on place 56:

Social Progress Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although it scores quite badly on the (personal) freedom and rights front.
Which doesn't surprise me. Does it surprise you? It doesn't, does it?