Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't read any sacred books. But I observe that
they appear to offer mixed messages. You're a
peaceful person, & glean that message. But
others are called to the message of vengeance
& conquest. I speculate that people with hostile
tendencies are inflamed when religion feeds their
worst natures with certainty & evil prescriptions,
eg, death dealing fatwahs, religious war, hatred
of the other.

Yeah, I once came across a non-religious person, who thought it a good idea to remove the religious parts of the brains of religious people.
To me it is not about religion or not. It is psychology and sociology.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, I once came across a non-religious person, who thought it a good idea to remove the religious parts of the brains of religious people.
To me it is not about religion or not. It is psychology and sociology.

Religion is an emergent property of human psychology, & sociology.

 

[Audie]

I grasp this, although that government's crackdown on Falun Gong makes me think its more of a grasp for political power than concern about a dangerous religion. Falun Gong seems harmless to me. Generally with governments of any kind the motives often aren't the same as what gets publicized.

Yes. I imagine that you are familiar with world history though, and you know some pros and cons of religions. They can be harmful though. I admit that.

Whether the crackdown on Falun gong
was mostly for reasons of political control,
I nor you can say.

I nor evidently the government now or ever
in China sees any benefit from allowing
Christianity in any, let alone all its forms,
into Chinese society.

 

[Audie]

You don't understand what atheism is.

I have no motivation to correct this.

Nor any ability. Those religionists aren't
very open to the epiphany that they might
be mistaken about anything.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't understand what atheism is..

It's not rocket science..

 

[1213]

My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

How it does that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not rocket science..

I know.

It isn't hard to grasp, but you've failed nonetheless. Not a good look.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Atheists are more moral because we are not saddled with a false morality..

Circular argument..
i.e. morality is what I say it is

 

[Audie]

It's not rocket science..

So why is it so impossible for you then?

 

[Audie]

How it does that?

Seriously? You are that oblivious?

 

[Audie]

Circular argument..
i.e. morality is what I say it is

Can't figure out atheism or what a circular
argument is

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Atheists are more moral because we are not saddled with a false morality as most theists are. We tend to have a rational morality.

Honestly, the more time I spend on RF reading the posts of some Abrahamic theists here in the religious debate forums, the more I believe that atheists do have a rational morality compared to those who profess to believe in God. If I did not believe in some things that I consider to be supernatural for personal reasons, I'd most likely be an atheist by now. If they are trying to promote their religion in a positive manner, then I think that they are failing at it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Honestly, the more time I spend on RF reading the posts of some of the Abrahamic theists here in the religious debate forums, the more I believe that atheists do have a more rational morality than those who profess a belief in God. If I didn't believe in some things that I consider to be supernatural for personal reasons, I'd most likely be an atheist by now. If they are trying to promote their religion in a positive manner, then I think that they are failing at it.

As long as you know that the theistic Gods are a subset of Gods, we agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

A better way to address this question, in a scientific way, is to compare purely religious people, with religious people who were partially seduced by Atheism and Liberalism....

The presumption of "seduction" has already
debunked the claim of being "scientific".
But we'll continue.....

...since the secular latter, will give you more freedom to be immoral.

This isn't necessarily true because people without religion
have morality...one that is within them, rather than imposed
by prescriptions & proscriptions of sacred books.
Moreover, believers also have this morality within, but it is
then affected by their inferences of scripture that conveys
multiple conflicting messages. These either reinforce a
believer's morality, or invert it. The latter we see in those
who murder in the name of God/Allah.

The source of immorality in Religion is not necessary due to religion, but the outside influences that apply pressure to religious people.

This seems to be blaming us heathens for the faithful's
failings. Tis weak to not accept personal responsibility
for one's actions in violation of one's beliefs.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The presumption of "seduction" has already
debunked the claim of being "scientific".
But we'll continue.....

This isn't necessarily true because people without religion
have morality...one that is within them, rather than imposed
by prescriptions & proscriptions of sacred books.
Moreover, believers also have this morality within, but it is
then affected by their inferences of scripture that conveys
multiple conflicting messages. These either reinforce a
believer's morality, or invert it. The latter we see in those
who murder in the name of God/Allah.


This seems to be blaming us heathens for the faithful's
failings. Tis weak to not accept personal responsibility
for one's own actions.

I think that Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." As far as I am concerned, he is spot on in his quote. In my opinion, my personal experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God clearly validates his point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person or to feel peace, happiness, and fulfillment in their life. I know that I am much happier and better off in my life without believing in God.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think that Penn Jillette hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." As far as I am concerned, he is spot on in his quote. In my opinion, my personal experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God clearly validates his point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person or to feel peace, happiness, and fulfillment in their life. I know that I am much happier and better off in my life without believing in God.

It seems that they know they're good people because they
believe. Therefore without belief, they wouldn't be good
people. (Having never experienced morality without it being
forced upon them by God/Allah, they cannot grok that we
heathens also have morality.) So they must invent the "No
True Scotsman" to dismiss the great many evil believers as
non-believers.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Whether the crackdown on Falun gong
was mostly for reasons of political control,
I nor you can say.

I nor evidently the government now or ever
in China sees any benefit from allowing
Christianity in any, let alone all its forms,
into Chinese society.

I cannot say much about either situation. Give me ten years to think about it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How it does that?

Good question.

When I said that theism often leads to immoral behaviour, I was thinking more of outcomes: theists often do immoral things as an expression of their theism.

As to how... my personal take on it is something like this:

- theism often comes as a package deal with unquestionable, supposedly divine tenets of a "revealed" religion that can command morally dubious things.

- accepting one absurd idea (e.g. theism) - whether by intellectual assent or by social pressure - is a good indicator that a person is susceptible to indefensible ideas generally, including immoral ideas.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Can't figure out atheism or what a circular
argument is

That post is as daft as the topic!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Inspired by this thread:

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Sauce for the goose and all that.

My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

More often than not, it seems.