Doing the Law

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Paul has studiously and repeatedly made the argument in chapters 2 and 3 that man is guilty of sin, whether under the Law or by being a law unto themselves.

Being a law unto themselves?

Where man is righteous there need not be a law.

The law is god's will and word. It exists independent of man. It is the torah, in both the restrictive sense and an all-encompassing sense.

This is consistent with his argument that sin is matter of the flesh which died under the Law

Sin didn't die.

 

[Shermana]

that sin is matter of the flesh which died under the Law

That's like saying as long as everyone drives under the Speed Limit, there's no need for Speed Limits. Kinda redundant and pointless. There's still a Speed Limit. How do you define what is righteousness if there is no standard?

that sin is matter of the flesh which died under the Law

I'm not even sure what this kind of babble is supposed to mean.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi LegionOnomaMoi
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asserted:
"Sin didn't die."
If Our Messiah Yahushua was made sin for us:
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of ELOHIM in him.
It is abundantly evident that Messiah Yahushua died. How is it that you say that sin did not die if Messiah was made sin for us and if Messiah did indeed die?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So, you're saying disobeying God, as long as it's in your "heart" to do so, is perfectly fine? Good luck with that.

Didn't say or imply that at all. Why would you?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How is it possible to have correct actions without "Rote obedience"? That's just a blatant contradiction unless your point is to say that you get to write the rules as whoever you want.

"Do as thou wilt".

Hmmm, where have I heard that...?

Obviously you are missing the point and relying on a pat answer.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sin didn't die.

Paul was referring to the flesh which was symbolically crucified with Christ and therefore dead to sin.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not even sure what this kind of babble is supposed to mean.

Then re-read Romans. Pay attention when reading chapter 6.

 

[metis]

Didn't say or imply that at all. Why would you?

Then maybe you can clarify your answer since this is what I picked up from how you wrote it. So, let me put it this way: if God gave us the Law, and you say that we don't have to follow that but we can just "follow our heart", how does this make sense?

For example, how does keeping kosher, which is found in the Law, relate to just "following our heart"? IOW, why would God command us to keep kosher and then turn around and say or imply that it's not important, especially in light of the fact that the scriptures say that the Law is "forever" and "perpetual"?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's like saying as long as everyone drives under the Speed Limit, there's no need for Speed Limits.

Now you understand...but you don't, do you?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sandy whitelinger
I don't believe this. I think Romans shows that we have a choice as to what set of laws we will be judged by. One is the Mosaic Law which Paul states condemns everone or the law of faith which offers justification. Now, since Paul states that the deeds Law justifies no one then what is termed as "the righteousness of the Law" cannot be deeds.

Where in the Torah or Tanakh does it state that the Law "condemns everyone"? Violating a Law may bring punishment, much like a mother or father may punish a disobedient child, but it does not state that we will be "condemned" if we violate a Law, much like a good parent won't condemn their child just because (s)he may misbehave.

Hi, first to address Sandy. True, all have a choice as is clear from Eden to be in obedience or disobedience to the WILL of GOD. Judgment comes by the Law--not by one's faith/belief. There has to be a law before one can "break it"/sin.
Paul rightly shows that GOD has placed all of mankind under the penalty of death(worthy of death). It is in HIS Mercy(Grace) that any of mankind is offered a stay of execution. And that by and through the Planofd Salvation which the Scriptures state was set-up "before the laying of the foundation of the world" HE Created.

True, one can not be justified by the same laws by which one is condemned. The purpose of the Decalogue is to point out to mankind where one has "missed the mark"/gone contrary to the Will of the Father/disobeyed/Sinned/become worthy of death.

The justification comes by FAITH in the means which GOD established for the means---as wasdemonstratedd to Adam and Eve at the time of their disobedience. A life had to be sacrificed in exchange for their lives.(They could not die for their sins/disobedience{required} and still live).

The "righteousness of the law" is seen in that penalty imposed was just/accurate. That "righteousness" when seen by the one who has "transgressed the law" brings one to the source by which "life" can be restored("ye are dead intrespassess and sins) and "death" avoided. Lev.17:11, reveals this: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

The "deeds of the Law" is what GOD required of mankind to have a right relationship to HIMSELF and to one's fellow human Beings. It was in breaking those laws that one found one's self in and adversarial position with his GOD.

Again, to repeat, the Law must be followed as closely as possible if one's Jewish, but if they're not, then they have a choice as to whether to follow the Law. Although, if one does believe that Torah is correct by stating that God gave the Law, and if a gentile believes in God, then maybe they should consider following the Law.

Hi Metis, I find all of the Decalogue to be present in the Scriptures/Torah before they were given at Sinai to Moses and all that were led out of Egypt by GOD through Moses.(including the "mixed multitude").
All the laws given by GOD there was for ALL who chose to have GOD as their GOD.
Remember that of the adults who were led out of Egypt only two were allowed to cross over into the "promised land".
Being a "son of Jacob"/ blood relative had no pardoning effect.
The Scriptures show plainly that Those who disbelieved the GOD of their salvation didn't cross into the "promised land" then, nor will "unbelievers" be "redeemed" into the "new heavens and new earth" which GOD promises to be made in the future.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Then maybe you can clarify your answer since this is what I picked up from how you wrote it. So, let me put it this way: if God gave us the Law, and you say that we don't have to follow that but we can just "follow our heart", how does this make sense?

Somehow whenever it is shown that the Christians do not follow the Law it is always posited that we are allowed to do whatever we want like that is the only thing to do. Not any heart attitude will do though. It is one that is right towards God, guided by the Holy Spirit or simply put to love God and treat your neighbor as yourself.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Paul was referring to the flesh which was symbolically crucified with Christ and therefore dead to sin.

This didn't end sin. The symbolic "death" of sin for Paul cleansed humanity but he says right there in Romans that knowledge of the works of the law goes hand in hand with sin. Sin is still pervasive in the world, it's just that now there is a chance for salvation because Jesus has offered a sort of "blank slate" through his sacrifice.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sandy whitelinger
Paul has studiously and repeatedly made the argument in chapters 2 and 3 that man is guilty of sin, whether under the Law or by being a law unto themselves.

Where man is righteous there need not be a law.

This is consistent with his(Paul's) argument that sin is matter of the flesh which died under the Law

Being a law unto themselves?

Hi, Again to Sandy first: Yes, All mankind is guilty of sin/Disobedience to the Commandments of GOD.
However, even those Paul stated were "a law unto them selves" were not given an out from being "guilty under the Law".
All Paul is saying is in their consciences they were believing and "doing" the laws GOD had presented at Sinai(and before) although they had no formal/official knowledge of receiving those laws---they were observing the "golden rule" .

Sandy, the "golden rule"/God's laws to be valid/or to exist doesn't depend upon one's righteousness. Their purpose is to inform one of their transgression--of the said laws.

Yes, Sandy, Paul was consistent in stating that all who sinned were as GOD had stated "ye shall surely die". Dead in the flesh. All needed to be born again which is as Paul states in Rom.6:1-6

The law is god's will and word. It exists independent of man. It is the torah, in both the restrictive sense and an all-encompassing sense.

Yes, Legion, The Law is present in the WILL and Word of GOD as revealed in the Scriptures. Mankind is it "hear and Do"/obey all that "proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD" for a right relationship to GOD and Mankind.

Sin didn't die.

Correct, The penalty for sinning/death was pardoned for all who confessed and repented and then submitted their will to the WILL of the Father.
However, Sin is still active in the world and will continue until the Coming of Jesus as promised.

 

[metis]

Hi Metis, I find all of the Decalogue to be present in the Scriptures/Torah before they were given at Sinai to Moses and all that were led out of Egypt by GOD through Moses.(including the "mixed multitude").
All the laws given by GOD there was for ALL who chose to have GOD as their GOD.
Remember that of the adults who were led out of Egypt only two were allowed to cross over into the "promised land".
Being a "son of Jacob"/ blood relative had no pardoning effect.
The Scriptures show plainly that Those who disbelieved the GOD of their salvation didn't cross into the "promised land" then, nor will "unbelievers" be "redeemed" into the "new heavens and new earth" which GOD promises to be made in the future.

First of all, I think there needs to be a clarification here. When we refer to the Law, the Decalogue is only the first 10 of 613 found in Torah, which can be found here along with the corresponding verses: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Now, the issue of which group is being referred to is rather clear when Moses says it's to the people "Israel", which are "Jews", although that latter name didn't get assigned to us until later. Was it possible there were some gentiles in our midst when coming out of Egypt? Possibly, but it never was believed that they had to follow the Law, with the exception of those Laws that eventually got written and enforced as what we call "civil law".

Finally, Jesus told his followers not to judge others, so maybe it's best to let God do the judging. As far as Judaism is concerned, we simply do not judge others because it's simply beyond our pay grade. We can evaluate, which is different, but not judge. And another thing we can say for certain, and that is that there are no references to a supposed necessity to believe a messiah must be a literal son of God or even a "messiah" in order to be "saved".

Shalom

 

[metis]

Somehow whenever it is shown that the Christians do not follow the Law it is always posited that we are allowed to do whatever we want like that is the only thing to do. Not any heart attitude will do though. It is one that is right towards God, guided by the Holy Spirit or simply put to love God and treat your neighbor as yourself.

But the Law just doesn't deal just with interpersonal relationships. See the link I provided in my last post.

 

[Shermana]

Then re-read Romans. Pay attention when reading chapter 6.

Okay, why don't you tell me what you think it means.

Do you think sin does not exist anymore?

Do you think Christians are welcome to commit sin as they please?

Do you believe a Christian will simply be magically prevented from committing sin?

Do you believe the Mark of the Christian is not committing sin? If so, I don't think there are any Christians in the world.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Metis, I find all of the Decalogue to be present in the Scriptures/Torah before they were given at Sinai to Moses and all that were led out of Egypt by GOD through Moses.(including the "mixed multitude").
All the laws given by GOD there was for ALL who chose to have GOD as their GOD.
Remember that of the adults who were led out of Egypt only two were allowed to cross over into the "promised land".
Being a "son of Jacob"/ blood relative had no pardoning effect.
The Scriptures show plainly that Those who disbelieved the GOD of their salvation didn't cross into the "promised land" then, nor will "unbelievers" be "redeemed" into the "new heavens and new earth" which GOD promises to be made in the future.

First of all, I think there needs to be a clarification here. When we refer to the Law, the Decalogue is only the first 10 of 613 found in Torah, which can be found here along with the corresponding verses: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Hi Metis, About those 613: (from your site) "According to Jewish tradition, G-d gave the Jewish people 613 mitzvot (commandments). All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally binding and equally the word of G-d."

Those first four words give the source. "Jewish tradition". Yes. GOD did give the Mitzvot=Commandments=ten words written on stone tablets); the Chuqqah=statutes; The torah=laws; The mishpat=judgments; from which those above were generated.

Also, Rambam(1135-1204 A.D.) didn't put together that listing until many years after Jesus Christ lived and had denounced many of the Rabbinic "commandments and traditions". As seen in this record by Mark(7:1-13), "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

Now, the issue of which group is being referred to is rather clear when Moses says it's to the people "Israel", which are "Jews", although that latter name didn't get assigned to us until later. Was it possible there were some gentiles in our midst when coming out of Egypt? Possibly, but it never was believed that they had to follow the Law, with the exception of those Laws that eventually got written and enforced as what we call "civil law".

Metis, it wasn't "which", but GOD addressed ALL at the foot of Sinai. and prior to that address this was given by GOD. Ex.12:49. "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."
GOD is "not the respecter of persons" and that "one law" for all is repeated many times in the O.T.(Torah).
There is no Noahide law as such---ALL of GOD's laws were to be observed by ALL persons who chose to have GOD as their GOD.

Finally, Jesus told his followers not to judge others, so maybe it's best to let God do the judging. As far as Judaism is concerned, we simply do not judge others because it's simply beyond our pay grade. We can evaluate, which is different, but not judge. And another thing we can say for certain, and that is that there are no references to a supposed necessity to believe a messiah must be a literal son of God or even a "messiah" in order to be "saved".
Shalom

Right! The final judging of who/what person will be accepted by GOD isn't known by any.
That information which is given by God is true and for those who believe to heed.
"Hear and Do".

The "Day of Atonement" which has been promised and looked for for many centuries is fast approaching. The sins of the people and priest will not be atoned for by the blood of a goat.

Peace.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This didn't end sin. The symbolic "death" of sin for Paul cleansed humanity but he says right there in Romans that knowledge of the works of the law goes hand in hand with sin. Sin is still pervasive in the world, it's just that now there is a chance for salvation because Jesus has offered a sort of "blank slate" through his sacrifice.

Correct.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Hi, Again to Sandy first: Yes, All mankind is guilty of sin/Disobedience to the Commandments of GOD.
However, even those Paul stated were "a law unto them selves" were not given an out from being "guilty under the Law".
All Paul is saying is in their consciences they were believing and "doing" the laws GOD had presented at Sinai(and before) although they had no formal/official knowledge of receiving those laws---they were observing the "golden rule" .

Sandy, the "golden rule"/God's laws to be valid/or to exist doesn't depend upon one's righteousness. Their purpose is to inform one of their transgression--of the said laws.

Yes, Sandy, Paul was consistent in stating that all who sinned were as GOD had stated "ye shall surely die". Dead in the flesh. All needed to be born again which is as Paul states in Rom.6:1-6

Correct.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First of all, I think there needs to be a clarification here. When we refer to the Law, the Decalogue is only the first 10 of 613 found in Torah, which can be found here along with the corresponding verses: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Now, the issue of which group is being referred to is rather clear when Moses says it's to the people "Israel", which are "Jews", although that latter name didn't get assigned to us until later. Was it possible there were some gentiles in our midst when coming out of Egypt? Possibly, but it never was believed that they had to follow the Law, with the exception of those Laws that eventually got written and enforced as what we call "civil law".

Finally, Jesus told his followers not to judge others, so maybe it's best to let God do the judging. As far as Judaism is concerned, we simply do not judge others because it's simply beyond our pay grade. We can evaluate, which is different, but not judge. And another thing we can say for certain, and that is that there are no references to a supposed necessity to believe a messiah must be a literal son of God or even a "messiah" in order to be "saved".

Shalom

Correct.