Doing the Law

[sincerly]

...I believe in the premise that when My Messiah Yahushua died, I believe that all of mankind, past, present, and future died. If that is the case, then you yourself are quite dead, and if nothing changes for you, they you yourself will grow older and eventually get sick and physically die, all because you are under the Law and the power of sin which is the Law!
All of mankind did die with Yahushua. What must now happen in order for you to live with HIM?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Hi Latuwr, I know that this was written to Legion, but scripturally, I'm not following your reasoning. Are you claiming that the Death Of Jesus upon the Cross 2000 years ago wiped the books clean of sins/the penalty being death for all persons from Adam to the last human Being that will be born.? period?
If that were so, then sin has been eliminated and there is no law.
Death is the penalty for SIN/Breaking the Decalogue.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I hope to yet give you a reply to your previous post to me so please forgive me for responding to your latest post first.
Running the risk of sounding like our President (that is, if you are a citizen also), I will say, "yes", "period", in answer to your question.
Here is why:
2 Corinthians 5:14
14 For the love of Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
What exactly is love? Is not love the fulfillment of the Law (see Romans 13:10)?
I know from what you have written that you yourself believe that Yahushua is the fulfillment of the sacrificial Law. If HIS love or fulfillment of the sacrificial Law results in the death of all, then the sacrifice or death of Messiah Yahushua means something different than is taught by Christianity, does it not?
Do you believe like Paul that all died when Messiah died?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I hope to yet give you a reply to your previous post to me so please forgive me for responding to your latest post first.
Running the risk of sounding like our President (that is, if you are a citizen also), I will say, "yes", "period", in answer to your question.
Here is why:
2 Corinthians 5:14
14 For the love of Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
What exactly is love? Is not love the fulfillment of the Law (see Romans 13:10)?
I know from what you have written that you yourself believe that Yahushua is the fulfillment of the sacrificial Law. If HIS love or fulfillment of the sacrificial Law results in the death of all, then the sacrifice or death of Messiah Yahushua means something different than is taught by Christianity, does it not?
Do you believe like Paul that all died when Messiah died?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Hi Latuwr, I hope you don't mind my placing that verse in context and in agreement with the message of Rom.13:10; 6:23; Eph.2:1; Col.2:13-15
2Cor.5:whole chapter, Yes, As Paul wrote in Romans. All have Sinned and the wages of sin is death. It is a Belief in the death of Jesus Christ that quickens/makes alive.

No! The death of Jesus Christ did NOT bring death to the believer in HIS act of reconciliation, but LIFE. The sinner instead of dying for HIS disobedience(which demanded his death), the Lord Jesus Christ substituted HIS LIFE for that of the Sinner. Therefore, the sinner's love for Jesus Christ "constrains"/binds one/holds him fast to Jesus in gratitude and an eternal love.

But unless one is born again, that Sinner will not be covered(Redeemed) by that BLOOD which Jesus shed upon the Cross. One must confess their sins, Repent of those sins, and submit to the Will of the FATHER . (The sinner's will previously was contrary to that of the Father---as the Scriptures declared.)

In that Repenting, the sinner chooses the "die to self"---the previously desireable lusts---and chooses to live the vicarious("Christ in one") LIFE originally meant for mankind.

Paul only taught that Christ's death gave LIFE to the Believer.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I don't mind at all should you string verse after verse together to prove your concept of any context.
Let's look at Romans 13:10, your first scripture flirting as you imagine with the context of 2 Corinthians 5:14.
Here is what Romans 13:10 says:
Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am assuming that you believe through the putting of these two scriptures together, I am assuming that you believe that they deny that Messiah could by HIS death execute all of mankind in a short work, that is, by the work of HIS Cross. I know that such an execution does not sound like love to you, but as you yourself well know by your reference of Romans 6:23, why would anyone complain if Messiah Yahushua was able by HIS love, that is, by HIS fulfillment of sacrificial Law to supply all of us with the very death of the sinner that is required by the Law? Should anyone be so bold as to reject their death with Messiah Yahushua on HIS Cross and claim thereby that HE by and through HIS work did not love them? Even more so, should anyone assert that Messiah Yahushua worked ill towards any of us by graciously allowing us to die with HIM on HIS Cross?
When Messiah Yahushua died, Sincerely, did you yourself die with HIM?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asserted:
"Paul only taught that Christ's death gave LIFE to the Believer."
Paul did teach that all were reconciled to ELOHIM by the death of Messiah Yahushua, but this reconciliation is not salvation; otherwise, why would Paul go on to add that we are saved by the LIFE of Messiah Yahushua (see Romans 5:10)? Indeed, we are saved from our sins through our belief that we, that is, the sinner, did die with Messiah, but the dead sinner is only given LIFE through the resurrected LIFE of Our Messiah Yahushua! Why should you or anyone else believe otherwise?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I don't mind at all should you string verse after verse together to prove your concept of any context.
Let's look at Romans 13:10, your first scripture flirting as you imagine with the context of 2 Corinthians 5:14.
Here is what Romans 13:10 says:
Romans 13:10
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am assuming that you believe through the putting of these two scriptures together, I am assuming that you believe that they deny that Messiah could by HIS death execute all of mankind in a short work, that is, by the work of HIS Cross. I know that such an execution does not sound like love to you, but as you yourself well know by your reference of Romans 6:23, why would anyone complain if Messiah Yahushua was able by HIS love, that is, by HIS fulfillment of sacrificial Law to supply all of us with the very death of the sinner that is required by the Law? Should anyone be so bold as to reject their death with Messiah Yahushua on HIS Cross and claim thereby that HE by and through HIS work did not love them? Even more so, should anyone assert that Messiah Yahushua worked ill towards any of us by graciously allowing us to die with HIM on HIS Cross?
When Messiah Yahushua died, Sincerely, did you yourself die with HIM?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Hi Latuwr, unfortunately, you did do some erroneous assuming.
2Cor.5:14-15 says this, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again".

The resurrection is an essential part of the Plan of salvation. Had Jesus Christ NOT risen from the tomb on that third day----there would be NO HOPE.

Yes, Rom. 6:23 Sin=death. Belief in Christ's death upon the Cross as a substitute for one who is already "dead in trespasses and sins",---gives LIFE.
That is the message of Jesus in John 3:16. along with the necessity of being "born again" in the symbolic "death, burial, and resurrection" of one's self with Christ Jesus.(the Cross experience).
That "Cross experience" is available to ALL, but Not all are willing to confess their Sins, Repent of them, and submit the Will of the Father.

The final death of all wicked/disobedient/evil/sinners who refuse to Repent and submit will be "executed" after the "Day of Atonement" Judging at the end of earth's history.

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You asserted:
"Paul only taught that Christ's death gave LIFE to the Believer."
Paul did teach that all were reconciled to ELOHIM by the death of Messiah Yahushua, but this reconciliation is not salvation; otherwise, why would Paul go on to add that we are saved by the LIFE of Messiah Yahushua (see Romans 5:10)? Indeed, we are saved from our sins through our belief that we, that is, the sinner, did die with Messiah, but the dead sinner is only given LIFE through the resurrected LIFE of Our Messiah Yahushua! Why should you or anyone else believe otherwise?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Hi Latuwr, Christ's death, while available to "ALL SINNERS", will NOT give life to the unrepentant,defiant/arrogant person. It is given to the "one who has met the conditions of reconciliation".
See my previous post.

 

[Thana]

Following the law is like wearing a condom during sex.
If you do what is right, You have a 98% chance of nothing bad happening.

The 'reward' is pleasing God, And generally living a good life.
Because if you don't steal, You can't get caught stealing.
If you don't kill, You can't get put into jail for killing, Etc, Etc.

 

[Shermana]

Following the law is like wearing a condom during sex.
If you do what is right, You have a 98% chance of nothing bad happening.

The 'reward' is pleasing God, And generally living a good life.
Because if you don't steal, You can't get caught stealing.
If you don't kill, You can't get put into jail for killing, Etc, Etc.

It goes further, for there are many seemingly "victimless" parts of the Law we are bound to as well, such as obeying the Sabbath, not sleeping with a menstruating woman, not freely offering consensual usury, etc.

 

[Thana]

It goes further, for there are many seemingly "victimless" parts of the Law we are bound to as well, such as obeying the Sabbath, not sleeping with a menstruating woman, not freely offering consensual usury, etc.

Uh well, personally, I believe the OT laws do not apply to modern life, Since they were written for those whose culture found these appropriate thousands of years ago.

But to each their own.

 

[Shermana]

Uh well, personally, I believe the OT laws do not apply to modern life, Since they were written for those whose culture found these appropriate thousands of years ago.

But to each their own.

It says for ALL generations.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Thana
Uh well, personally, I believe the OT laws do not apply to modern life, Since they were written for those whose culture found these appropriate thousands of years ago.

It says for ALL generations.

Hi Thana, Is there another Creator GOD than the one which is described in Genesis Chapter one and ongoing? Isn't that same GOD called one's "personal Saviour" today? Since That GOD is an Everlasting GOD who doesn't change, shouldn't a follower of HIS be Obedient to the Laws HE has Given for a right relationship to HIM and one's fellow Beings?

Hi Sherman, In connection to what Than said above, Why do the Jewish people say that Gentiles were not given the Law and only have to abide by the so-called Noahide law?
But you are saying above, "ALL generations"?----including, Thana's?

The Creator GOD I see/find in the Scriptures "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" and was the Creator of "all things one sees".(and can't see)

 

[Thana]

Originally Posted by Thana
Uh well, personally, I believe the OT laws do not apply to modern life, Since they were written for those whose culture found these appropriate thousands of years ago.



Hi Thana, Is there another Creator GOD than the one which is described in Genesis Chapter one and ongoing? Isn't that same GOD called one's "personal Saviour" today? Since That GOD is an Everlasting GOD who doesn't change, shouldn't a follower of HIS be Obedient to the Laws HE has Given for a right relationship to HIM and one's fellow Beings?

Hi Sherman, In connection to what Than said above, Why do the Jewish people say that Gentiles were not given the Law and only have to abide by the so-called Noahide law?
But you are saying above, "ALL generations"?----including, Thana's?

The Creator GOD I see/find in the Scriptures "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" and was the Creator of "all things one sees".(and can't see)

It is true, God does not change. He's steadfast.
However, The OT's teachings were not only meant to be read by modern people, But also the people who lived thousands of years ago. The OT reflects their culture, And how they saw the world (An eye for an eye) However, Jesus teaches us instead to turn the other cheek.

Therefore the OT was meant for people of that culture, Not to say that it isn't valuable to us now, Just that one must look at it with common sense.

 

[Shermana]

It is true, God does not change. He's steadfast.
However, The OT's teachings were not only meant to be read by modern people, But also the people who lived thousands of years ago. The OT reflects their culture, And how they saw the world (An eye for an eye) However, Jesus teaches us instead to turn the other cheek.

Therefore the OT was meant for people of that culture, Not to say that it isn't valuable to us now, Just that one must look at it with common sense.

So you're saying "Common sense" somehow means that "Modern culture" trumps the text itself, and when he said "All generations" he actually just meant "All generations in this culture until the dawn of modern culture arises".

Now how do you determine which of the Laws no longer apply to this "modern culture" which is more important than the "perpetual" commandments of which we are commanded to not "Add or subtract" from? Who gets to decide?

 

[Thana]

So you're saying "Common sense" somehow means that "Modern culture" trumps the text itself, and when he said "All generations" he actually just meant "All generations in this culture until the dawn of modern culture arises".

Now how do you determine which of the Laws no longer apply to this "modern culture" which is more important than the "perpetual" commandments of which we are commanded to not "Add or subtract" from? Who gets to decide?

I don't add or subtract, I don't ignore God's teachings or anything like that.
I just look at it with an open heart, And the Holy Spirit guides me.

If you look at the bible from a literal standpoint, Or if you look at it without using the Holy Spirit or at the very least common sense, You're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Shermana]

I don't add or subtract, I don't ignore God's teachings or anything like that.
I just look at it with an open heart, And the Holy Spirit guides me.

If you look at the bible from a literal standpoint, Or if you look at it without using the Holy Spirit or at the very least common sense, You're gonna have a bad time.

Okay, what if I said the Holy Spirit guides me?

How do we determine which of us is lying about the Spirit guiding them, or at least mistaken?

I love when Christians basically resort to the "Holy Spirit" defense once their argument has hit the wall. It's amazing how many different interpretations the Spirit has given people, because obviously we can't doubt their claims that the Spirit has guided them even if they all have radically different, conflicting views.

Be careful about boldly speaking falsely of the Spirit as a last ditch defense, there's a reason it's the unforgivable sin.

 

[Thana]

Okay, what if I said the Holy Spirit guides me?

How do we determine which of us is lying about the Spirit guiding them, or at least mistaken?

I love when Christians basically resort to the "Holy Spirit" defense once their argument has hit the wall.

Be careful about speaking falsely of the Spirit, there's a reason it's the unforgivable sin.

We all have different lots in life, So it's safe to say you would be guided differently to me.

I don't particuarly appreciate being warned, Considering, As a Christian, I already know that.

And how is saying the Holy Spirit guides me considered a false statement?

 

[Shermana]

We all have different lots in life, So it's safe to say you would be guided differently to me.

I don't particuarly appreciate being warned, Considering, As a Christian, I already know that.

And how is saying the Holy Spirit guides me considered a false statement?

Because the Spirit is not guiding you. I'll say that very boldly, and risk speaking falsely about it. If I'm wrong, may God punish me directly.

The Spirit does not give conflicting information to different people.

If you have no argument, try to avoid claiming the Spirit guides you, that's simply not an actual debate argument, that's basically preaching, and dangerous to your soul at the same time. It's not worth the cop out.

 

[Thana]

Because the Spirit is not guiding you. I'll say that very boldly, and risk speaking falsely about it. If I'm wrong, may God punish me directly.

The Spirit does not give conflicting information to different people.

If you have no argument, try to avoid claiming the Spirit guides you, that's simply not an actual debate argument, that's basically preaching, and dangerous to your soul at the same time. It's not worth the cop out.

You don't really understand, And I don't hold that against you.
However, Speaking of the Holy Spirit is not preaching, It's using what I believe to be the truth in a debate. And of course, Since you don't believe it's the truth, You dismiss it.

Which, when in an arguement, Is being ignorant or at the very least, Saying you're not very good at debating.

 

[Shermana]

You don't really understand, And I don't hold that against you.
However, Speaking of the Holy Spirit is not preaching, It's using what I believe to be the truth in a debate. And of course, Since you don't believe it's the truth, You dismiss it.

Which, when in an arguement, Is being ignorant or at the very least, Saying you're not very good at debating.

No, claiming that you speak the truth because you have the Spirit guiding you is preaching, especially when it's in lieu of an actual counter-argument. It's a shady last-ditch last resort. How is it possibly debating? How is claiming that you have God's Spirit guiding you in any way a debate argument?