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Donald Trump is digging his own grave

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How was there a quid pro qoe?

The ukraine president said he was not pushed or pressured.

Just today he said this

Ukraine president says 'no blackmail' in phone call with Trump

"There was no blackmail," Zelensky said. "They blocked this money and nobody asked us [for] anything,"

How do you explain that?
There was a quid pro quo. His aid was held up as a threat. The ambassador to Ukraine texted about this before it even became a thing. The message was clear to him, investigate Biden or else. For Trump such an investigation alone by another country into his opponent would have hurt him. And you talk about being brain washed. Here is a clue, don't trust what politicians say, trust what they do. The president of the Ukraine knows that his aid would be threatened in the future if he did not "play nice". The aid was to be released to an ally and Trump held it up for his own purposes.
 
There was a quid pro quo. His aid was held up as a threat. The ambassador to Ukraine texted about this before it even became a thing. The message was clear to him, investigate Biden or else.

There was no "investigate biden or else" thats your spin.

For Trump such an investigation alone by another country into his opponent would have hurt him.

But when the democrats do it, its ok, right? Remember the politico article i gave you?

And you talk about being brain washed. Here is a clue, don't trust what politicians say, trust what they do. The president of the Ukraine knows that his aid would be threatened in the future if he did not "play nice". The aid was to be released to an ally and Trump held it up for his own purposes.

Those purposes were two fold. To make sure ukrain was going to fight corruption and to pressure other countries to give aid.

And you completely ignored ukraine president saying he was not blackmailed. He said this after getting the money!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There was no "investigate biden or else" thats your spin.



But when the democrats do it, its ok, right? Remember the politico article i gave you?



Those purposes were two fold. To make sure ukrain was going to fight corruption and to pressure other countries to give aid.

And you completely ignored ukraine president saying he was not blackmailed. He said this after getting the money!
Let's not break up posts excessively. That is a rude attempt to ignore the points made in a post.

Try again.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Watching a bit of that on CNN right now. Yesterday's news:

Fox News Poll: Record support for Trump impeachment

8ff3ab71-1.png


And it will only get worse for Trump as more and more info comes outt.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
I dont know, nor do you know if he will follow through. In days ahead we will know. But, the ukraine president did say he would grant trumps favor

Not really a favor, a quid pro quo.

And how do you know it was a quid pro quo and not a favor?

Instead of preaching, why dont you answer my question. How did trump commit a quid pro qoe

You two are bickering without understanding what quid pro quo is:

[1] Quid pro quo ('something for something' in Latin) is a Latin phrase used in English to mean an exchange of goods or services, in which one transfer is contingent upon the other; 'a favour for a favour'..."

[2] Quid pro quo is a Latin phrase that literally means 'something for something,' or 'this for that.' We use the phrase to signify an exchange of goods, services, favors, or any other kind of value. When we’re talking about multiple exchanges, we can say quid pro quos.

And yes, quid pro quo can be illegal, such is the case here. We see it time and again on a civil level. E.g., it's often an aspect of some sexual harassment cases, "quid pro quo sexual harassment":

[3] "The Latin term quid pro quo translates to "something for something." Therefore, quid pro quo harassment occurs in the workplace when a manager or other authority figure offers or merely hints that he or she will give the employee something (a raise or a promotion) in return for that employee's satisfaction of a sexual demand. This also occurs when a manager or other authority figure says he or she will not fire or reprimand an employee in exchange for type of sexual favor. A job applicant also may be the subject of this kind of harassment if the hiring decision was based on the acceptance or rejection of sexual advances."

Back to Trump's illegal activities:

[4] "Quid pro quo can also refer to legal or illegal transactions. For example, legal transactions occur all the time where one party sells a product or service to another party for something of value (e.g. money). This mutual exchange is a legal quid pro quo. On the other hand, quid pro quo can refer to an illegal transaction such as blackmail."

So, yes, Trump committed (per the transcript of which he approved its submittal), quote: "Do me a favor, though" - he'd withhold the already approved support to Ukraine unless Zelensky did him a favor, i.e., create dirt against Trump's political rival to help him in the 2020 election. The aid to Ukraine wasn't contingent on his personal wants for something in return, it was already approved for by Congress, if Ukraine was expected to legally offer something in return (e.g., remain an US ally), a legal quid pro quo would have been an ethical, open request by the US recorded for public record and reported on, out on the table as part of agreements that preceded final approval of the aid to be given, not something Trump could unilaterally tack on after it had been approved and then attempt to hide doing so by trying to bury the transcript by atypically having it stored on a top classified server.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You two are bickering without understanding what quid pro quo is:

[1] Quid pro quo ('something for something' in Latin) is a Latin phrase used in English to mean an exchange of goods or services, in which one transfer is contingent upon the other; 'a favour for a favour'..."

[2] Quid pro quo is a Latin phrase that literally means 'something for something,' or 'this for that.' We use the phrase to signify an exchange of goods, services, favors, or any other kind of value. When we’re talking about multiple exchanges, we can say quid pro quos.

And yes, quid pro quo can be illegal, such is the case here. We see it time and again on a civil level. E.g., it's often an aspect of some sexual harassment cases, "quid pro quo sexual harassment":

[3] "The Latin term quid pro quo translates to "something for something." Therefore, quid pro quo harassment occurs in the workplace when a manager or other authority figure offers or merely hints that he or she will give the employee something (a raise or a promotion) in return for that employee's satisfaction of a sexual demand. This also occurs when a manager or other authority figure says he or she will not fire or reprimand an employee in exchange for type of sexual favor. A job applicant also may be the subject of this kind of harassment if the hiring decision was based on the acceptance or rejection of sexual advances."

Back to Trump's illegal activities:

[4] "Quid pro quo can also refer to legal or illegal transactions. For example, legal transactions occur all the time where one party sells a product or service to another party for something of value (e.g. money). This mutual exchange is a legal quid pro quo. On the other hand, quid pro quo can refer to an illegal transaction such as blackmail."

So, yes, Trump committed (per the transcript of which he approved its submittal), quote: "Do me a favor, though" - he'd withhold the already approved support to Ukraine unless Zelensky did him a favor, i.e., create dirt against Trump's political rival to help him in the 2020 election. The aid to Ukraine wasn't contingent on his personal wants for something in return, it was already approved for by Congress, if Ukraine was expected to legally offer something in return (e.g., remain an US ally), a legal quid pro quo would have been an ethical, open request by the US recorded for public record and reported on, out on the table as part of agreements that preceded final approval of the aid to be given, not something Trump could unilaterally tack on after it had been approved and then attempt to hide doing so by trying to bury the transcript by atypically having it stored on a top classified server.
Actually I do understand that Trump asked for a quid pro quo, he did not receive one, he asked for one and that is still illegal. He withheld aid, the clear understanding was that it was being withheld for the "favor" that he later asked for..

As the text message from the chief diplomat to the Ukraine shows, it was not thought to be a good idea:

"I think it’s crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign,"

After his boss talked with Trump he got this rather familiar message back:

"Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear no quid pro quo's of any kind."

READ: House committees release texts from former Ukraine envoy Kurt Volker
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Actually I do understand that Trump asked for a quid pro quo, he did not receive one, he asked for one and that is still illegal. He withheld aid, the clear understanding was that it was being withheld for the "favor" that he later asked for..

As the text message from the chief diplomat to the Ukraine shows, it was not thought to be a good idea:

"I think it’s crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign,"

After his boss talked with Trump he got this rather familiar message back:

"Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear no quid pro quo's of any kind."

READ: House committees release texts from former Ukraine envoy Kurt Volker

My post was in response to the quoted exchange in which you stated:

Not really a favor, a quid pro quo.

Quid pro quo is not simply to threaten, coerce, blackmail and/or extort. That's certainly half of it, the other half is demanding an exchange or favor that delivers something of value. I.e., Yes a favor, a quid pro quo.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My post was in response to the quoted exchange in which you stated:



Quid pro quo is not simply to threaten, coerce, blackmail and/or extort. That's certainly half of it, the other half is demanding an exchange or favor that delivers something of value. I.e., Yes a favor, a quid pro quo.
I thought that the favor being a "quid" or "quo" if you prefer was rather obvious. But then I forget whom I am debating with at times.

Meanwhile with these most recent arrests this is getting to be more and more similar to Watergate. The President's defense appears to be a house of cards that is about to collapse.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
I thought that the favor being a "quid" or "quo" if you prefer was rather obvious. But then I forget whom I am debating with at times.

Meanwhile with these most recent arrests this is getting to be more and more similar to Watergate. The President's defense appears to be a house of cards that is about to collapse.

Trump supporters commonly maintain their stance by willful ignorance and deliberate distortion, sometimes out of genuine ignorance. The obvious is somehow not obvious if it confirms Trump's corruption. Using "favor" to deny a quid pro is just the right's inept attempt at semantics, which should be called out every time. Such antics is how they continue to hoodwink the less intelligent part of the base.
 
You two are bickering without understanding what quid pro quo is:

[1] Quid pro quo ('something for something' in Latin) is a Latin phrase used in English to mean an exchange of goods or services, in which one transfer is contingent upon the other; 'a favour for a favour'..."

[2] Quid pro quo is a Latin phrase that literally means 'something for something,' or 'this for that.' We use the phrase to signify an exchange of goods, services, favors, or any other kind of value. When we’re talking about multiple exchanges, we can say quid pro quos.

And yes, quid pro quo can be illegal, such is the case here. We see it time and again on a civil level. E.g., it's often an aspect of some sexual harassment cases, "quid pro quo sexual harassment":

[3] "The Latin term quid pro quo translates to "something for something." Therefore, quid pro quo harassment occurs in the workplace when a manager or other authority figure offers or merely hints that he or she will give the employee something (a raise or a promotion) in return for that employee's satisfaction of a sexual demand. This also occurs when a manager or other authority figure says he or she will not fire or reprimand an employee in exchange for type of sexual favor. A job applicant also may be the subject of this kind of harassment if the hiring decision was based on the acceptance or rejection of sexual advances."

Back to Trump's illegal activities:

[4] "Quid pro quo can also refer to legal or illegal transactions. For example, legal transactions occur all the time where one party sells a product or service to another party for something of value (e.g. money). This mutual exchange is a legal quid pro quo. On the other hand, quid pro quo can refer to an illegal transaction such as blackmail."

So, yes, Trump committed (per the transcript of which he approved its submittal), quote: "Do me a favor, though" - he'd withhold the already approved support to Ukraine unless Zelensky did him a favor, i.e., create dirt against Trump's political rival to help him in the 2020 election. The aid to Ukraine wasn't contingent on his personal wants for something in return, it was already approved for by Congress, if Ukraine was expected to legally offer something in return (e.g., remain an US ally), a legal quid pro quo would have been an ethical, open request by the US recorded for public record and reported on, out on the table as part of agreements that preceded final approval of the aid to be given, not something Trump could unilaterally tack on after it had been approved and then attempt to hide doing so by trying to bury the transcript by atypically having it stored on a top classified server.

Its not in the transcript. Trump does not say 'do me a favor OR ELSE YOU WONT GET THE MONEY'. Thats not there. What is there is "do me a favor" and "if its possible".

Also whats there is the ukraine president says "i was not pushed" now today "i was not blackmailed".

Also, what is so bad in a political leader asking another to look into a case to see if there was potential corruption? Thats something of value to the american people, not just trump.

Also, with a real crime, someone else is harmed. What harm is done here?
 
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Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Its not in the transcript. Trump does not say 'do me a favor OR ELSE YOU WONT GET THE MONEY'. Thats not there. What is there is "do me a favor" and "if its possible".

Also whats there is the ukraine president says "i was not pushed" now today "i was not blackmailed".

Also, what is so bad in a political leader asking another to look into a case to see if there was potential corruption? Thats something of value to the american people, not just trump.

Also, with a real crime, someone else is harmed. What harm is done here?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand what transpired? There is ZERO ambiguity on Trump's quid pro quo. None. Period. Fullstop.

This is directly from the transcript that Trump had released, quoted IN ORDER:

President Zelenskyy: I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

The President: I would like you to do us a favor though

Zelensky is acknowledging the U.S. government had already approved the aid. Trump had one job, to officially inform him the already approved aid. Instead of responding with some form of "you're welcome," he instead says, "I would like you to do us a favor though". That's intent to withhold already approved aid unless he personally gets something else. Not the government, him. Had it been a legit condition, it would have been established before hand during the decision making process in whether to extend aid and agreed to then. Instead, Trump treats the aid as though it's something he's personally giving in exchange for a personal favor.

There is not to spin on this, there is nothing to debate. It's an abuse of the office.

Coercion isn't simply overt threat, it's often couched in non-threatening language.

The harm is that had Trump succeeded, thousands of lives were at jeopardy in Ukraine. They need that aid for javelin missiles which are significant in their resistance to Russian encroachment which is far more powerful than Ukraine.

There is no excuse for denying the nature of what took place.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Its not in the transcript. Trump does not say 'do me a favor OR ELSE YOU WONT GET THE MONEY'. Thats not there. What is there is "do me a favor" and "if its possible".

Also whats there is the ukraine president says "i was not pushed" now today "i was not blackmailed".

Also, what is so bad in a political leader asking another to look into a case to see if there was potential corruption? Thats something of value to the american people, not just trump.

Also, with a real crime, someone else is harmed. What harm is done here?
Why do you think it has to be there? This is not a bad mob movie.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand what transpired? There is ZERO ambiguity on Trump's quid pro quo. None. Period. Fullstop.

This is directly from the transcript that Trump had released, quoted IN ORDER:

President Zelenskyy: I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

The President: I would like you to do us a favor though

Zelensky is acknowledging the U.S. government had already approved the aid. Trump had one job, to officially inform him the already approved aid. Instead of responding with some form of "you're welcome," he instead says, "I would like you to do us a favor though". That's intent to withhold already approved aid unless he personally gets something else. Not the government, him. Had it been a legit condition, it would have been established before hand during the decision making process in whether to extend aid and agreed to then. Instead, Trump treats the aid as though it's something he's personally giving in exchange for a personal favor.

There is not to spin on this, there is nothing to debate. It's an abuse of the office.

Coercion isn't simply overt threat, it's often couched in non-threatening language.

The harm is that had Trump succeeded, thousands of lives were at jeopardy in Ukraine. They need that aid for javelin missiles which are significant in their resistance to Russian encroachment which is far more powerful than Ukraine.

There is no excuse for denying the nature of what took place.
Not quite the scene I was looking for, but close enough.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Its not in the transcript. Trump does not say 'do me a favor OR ELSE YOU WONT GET THE MONEY'. Thats not there. What is there is "do me a favor" and "if its possible".

Also whats there is the ukraine president says "i was not pushed" now today "i was not blackmailed".

Also, what is so bad in a political leader asking another to look into a case to see if there was potential corruption? Thats something of value to the american people, not just trump.
Only if it's internal, i.e. within our government and agencies. There are protocols in place to avoid conflicts of interest and corruption of our laws. Follow them. Meaning, you can investigate, but not president asking other country to do it for us. FBI, CIA, and other institutions can involve other countries and their agencies, but then there's no direct conflict of interest. When the president works on getting rid of his opposition for the election. He's the one abusing his power to win the election.

Also, with a real crime, someone else is harmed. What harm is done here?
We the people. Us, Americans, the voters are harmed when election is infringed upon and manipulated.

The laws against foreign countries interfering with our election is to protect one of the most important freedoms and rights we have as American citizens, a fair election. Without a fair election, American democracy and constitution is made null and void.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Only if it's internal, i.e. within our government and agencies. There are protocols in place to avoid conflicts of interest and corruption of our laws. Follow them. Meaning, you can investigate, but not president asking other country to do it for us. FBI, CIA, and other institutions can involve other countries and their agencies, but then there's no direct conflict of interest. When the president works on getting rid of his opposition for the election. He's the one abusing his power to win the election.


We the people. Us, Americans, the voters are harmed when election is infringed upon and manipulated.

The laws against foreign countries interfering with our election is to protect one of the most important freedoms and rights we have as American citizens, a fair election. Without a fair election, American democracy and constitution is made null and void.
I did not say that. In fact your quote goes to a different post of mine.

Please fix your post. Thank you.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Ok, if i quoted out of context, then point out in the transcript where trump or zelinski says they did not believe the ukraine government was corrupt. Go ahead.



And the conditions wer also on combating corruption. From the CNN article you gave.

"The Trump administration decided that Ukraine's passage of a new national security law, signed by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on July 5, met the requirements enshrined in the US legislation, thereby allowing the Pentagon to release the funds."

And another article related to ukraine. Ukrainian president: Trump didn’t use US military aid as lever

An exerpt "The Pentagon announced plans in June to send $250 million in aid to Ukraine, but its delivery was delayed. A defense official said last week that the Trump administration held up the money to analyze the extent to which Ukraine was addressing long-standing U.S. concerns about corruption."


Here’s the thing, I said to you if trump cared so much about Ukraine corruption why didn’t he go after Ukraine corruption in 2018, 2017, 2016? You said because he didn’t trust to former Ukraine president. Well his administration gave 200 million in military aid to the former president. And you have yet gave a adequate response for that falsehood.

also in the cnn article I gave you it says this about the purpose for the funds.

The funds are intended to enhance Ukraine's command and control, situational awareness systems, secure communications, military mobility, night vision and military medical treatment, a US defense official told CNN.

also those articles you gave me are unrelated to the cnn article that I gave you. In any case form reading the first article. Now an idiot might read this and think, "See, Zelensky is acknowledging the seriousness of this investigation." But Zelensky is playing politics, Trump has a history of responding well to leaders who stroke his ego, and ending agreements and meetings with leaders who don't. And at this point Ukraine is desperately in need of additional lethal assistance (which Zelensky may, but probably didn't, know was being held up at the request of Trump a week before this call and had been seeking a WH meeting with the two leaders, why not suck up a little bit?

In the second article which you cherry-picked. Has this to say about trumps claim of withholding funds because of corruption.


WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump has said he withheld nearly $400 million in military aid from Ukraine because of corruption in the country, but recently released Pentagon documents undercut that explanation and add fuel to the whistleblower complaint that has launched an impeachment inquiry in Congress.

Democrats in the House on Friday demanded answers on what prompted the Trump administration to place a hold on the military aid, which was needed to fight Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, even as the president was pressing the Ukrainian government to investigate the son of former Vice President Joe Biden.

The Pentagon documents reflect its own assessment that Ukraine was making progress on anti-corruption efforts.


Trump denies putting a hold on the aid because of 2020 politics, and initially said this week he had concerns about corruption in Ukraine, a U.S. priority for years.

However, the Pentagon in May officially certified that it had seen enough anti-corruption progress to justify releasing the congressionally authorized aid, according to documents provided to The Associated Press.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Y

So, yes, Trump committed (per the transcript of which he approved its submittal), quote: "Do me a favor, though" -

Assertion based on nothing in the statement

he'd withhold the already approved support to Ukraine unless Zelensky did him a favor, i.e., create dirt against Trump's political rival to help him in the 2020 election.

Not in the transcript at all. Another assertion

The aid to Ukraine wasn't contingent on his personal wants for something in return, it was already approved for by Congress, if Ukraine was expected to legally offer something in return (e.g., remain an US ally), a legal quid pro quo would have been an ethical, open request by the US recorded for public record and reported on, out on the table as part of agreements that preceded final approval of the aid to be given, not something Trump could unilaterally tack on after it had been approved and then attempt to hide doing so by trying to bury the transcript by atypically having it stored on a top classified server.

POTUS can cut off foreign aid by a simple order. Obama did it in 2013. He didn't restart it until 2015. Both done without Congress being involved. Biden's gaff could be considered evidence if you believe his threat of "call him". Ergo your claim applies to both Biden and Obama which have actual recordings of the threat.
 
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