Donald Trump is digging his own grave

[sooda]

I pointed this out days ago.

Good......

 

[metis]

State the exact words of this law and where it came from.

Maybe you can actually look it up yourself, and if you are not willing to do so, then maybe we can rather easily see where the problem lies.

Also, do you honestly think that even the asking of a foreign leader to get directly involved in our domestic electioneering process is somehow ethical even to begin with? Do ethics really count, iyo, or is it to be that everything is somehow "moral"?

 

[sooda]

Maybe you can actually look it up yourself, and if you are not willing to do so, then maybe we can rather easily see where the problem lies.

Also, do you honestly think that even the asking of a foreign leader to get directly involved in our domestic electioneering process is somehow ethical even to begin with? Do ethics really count, iyo, or is it to be that everything is somehow "moral"?

Ethics and morals are not part of Trump's vocabulary.

 

[sooda]

Yea, and trumps reason in asking the favor was also due to fighting corruption.

You can say trumps lying about his motives all you want, but thats purely your opinion.

Also, what is biden doing meddling into ukraines business anyway? Thats there country, if they have a "corrupt prosecuter", then thats on them.

They wanted US foreign aid money.

 

[sooda]

Maybe you can actually look it up yourself, and if you are not willing to do so, then maybe we can rather easily see where the problem lies.

Also, do you honestly think that even the asking of a foreign leader to get directly involved in our domestic electioneering process is somehow ethical even to begin with? Do ethics really count, iyo, or is it to be that everything is somehow "moral"?

See major inconsistencies.

Never-Before-Seen Trump Tax Documents Show Major ...

View attachment 97881

7 hours ago · In February, Cohen told Congress that Trump had adjusted figures up or down, as necessary, to obtain loans and avoid taxes. “It was my experience that Mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it...

Never-Before-Seen Trump Tax Documents Show Major Inconsistencies — ProPublica​

 

[Callisto]

Secondly, the Logan Act (U.S. Code § 953) is not applicable for two reasons. Besides the fact Biden's actions were authorized and represented the US' stance, he also wasn't in violation of it because it pertains to private citizens like Guilani, who IS in clear violation of it.

Private citizens cannot negotiate with a foreign government on behalf of the U.S. So, Giuliani not only broke that law but wasn't even acting for the US supposed best interests but covertly for Trump's personal political interests.

To wit,

Trump’s impeachment barricade crumbles - Politico.com

Excerpt:

"And on Tuesday, a senior State Department official, George Kent, testified for nearly 10 hours about his knowledge of the episode despite an attempt by Trump administration lawyers to block him...

According to people familiar with his testimony, Kent told House impeachment investigators that he was alarmed at the role Rudy Giuliani, Trump’s personal attorney, was playing in Ukraine. In particular, one lawmaker in the room said Kent was concerned because the president was apparently listening to Giuliani, who had mounted a months-long campaign to discredit Joe Biden on unfounded charges.

'He was concerned at the undue influence a private attorney — not an official with the United States government and not someone charged with the responsibility of U.S. relations with Ukraine — was exerting, and that Giuliani was listening to discredited sources and had ties to some questionable characters in Ukraine, and nonetheless had the ear of the president,' Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.) said in a brief interview as he emerged from Kent’s deposition. "

 

[sooda]

To wit,

Trump’s impeachment barricade crumbles - Politico.com

Excerpt:

"And on Tuesday, a senior State Department official, George Kent, testified for nearly 10 hours about his knowledge of the episode despite an attempt by Trump administration lawyers to block him...

According to people familiar with his testimony, Kent told House impeachment investigators that he was alarmed at the role Rudy Giuliani, Trump’s personal attorney, was playing in Ukraine. In particular, one lawmaker in the room said Kent was concerned because the president was apparently listening to Giuliani, who had mounted a months-long campaign to discredit Joe Biden on unfounded charges.

'He was concerned at the undue influence a private attorney — not an official with the United States government and not someone charged with the responsibility of U.S. relations with Ukraine — was exerting, and that Giuliani was listening to discredited sources and had ties to some questionable characters in Ukraine, and nonetheless had the ear of the president,' Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.) said in a brief interview as he emerged from Kent’s deposition. "

Who pays Giuliani???

 

[Callisto]

Who pays Giuliani???

Exactly.

As Deep Throat told Bob Woodward during Watergate: "Follow the money."

 

[Ouroboros]

I think Trump will survive all of this anyway, because he's after all Trump Christ, second coming of Jesus. All his followers will support him through hell and hailstorms. Giuliani on the other hand, he might end up in jail.

 

[Ponder This]

Trump admits he asked Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden, and asks China to do the same. Like Nixon telling America "I ordered the break in.

Trump says Biden and people like Biden are probably why China has had trade advantages over the US. Also he slams politicians who have their sons profiting off their offices, so sad for Donald trump Jr.

Asked about the recall of the US ambassador to Ukraine, Trump says, "I don't know if I recalled her or somebody recalled her."

Does trump not know that this is illegal or is it that he just didn't care knowing the Republicans will back him?

It's fascinating to see how far Adam Schiff's parody of Trump's phone call gets accepted over the reality of Trump's phone call.

The transcript of Trump's phone call with Zelensky is available for anyone to read and it's not that long of a read. It could probably fit on a single page of RF comments.

 

[Callisto]

I think Trump will survive all of this anyway, because he's after all Trump Christ, second coming of Jesus. All his followers will support him through hell and hailstorms. Giuliani on the other hand, he might end up in jail.

Giuliani will most likely be burnt to a crisp. Trump is notorious for throwing others under the bus. He already tried that by claiming to not knowing Parnas and Fruman but that didn't last long after the media dug thru one of their (Parnas', I think?) Facebook pages and found pics of them with him and with Don Jr.

No doubt Trump will keep his rabid core but he's got a tidal wave of bad news, arrested henchmen, and an army of former staffers and other government officials fed up with his bs that he didn't have the first time around. The only thing he has going is the economy, which he can't rightfully take credit for since it was on trajectory before he took office. but now if its decline continues, he's got nuthin'.

 

[Jollybear]

Taking what he said out of context doesn't make him guilty of illegal activity:

"In retrospect, look, I think that it was poor judgment on my part... because I don't believe now, when I look back on it -- I know that there was -- did nothing wrong at all," Hunter Biden told ABC News in an exclusive interview. "However, was it poor judgment to be in the middle of something that is...a swamp in — in — in many ways? Yeah."

Ya and trump says he did nothing wrong too. So, you should believe him

"I gave a hook to some very unethical people to act in illegal ways to try to do some harm to my father. That's where I made the mistake," said Biden. "So I take full responsibility for that. Did I do anything improper? No, not in any way. Not in any way whatsoever."

(Hunter) Biden said, "I take -- full responsibility for that. Do I -- did I do anything improper? No, and not in any way. Not in any way whatsoever. I joined a board, I served honorably. I did -- I focused on corporate governance. I didn't have any discussions with my father before or after I joined the board as it related to it, other than that brief exchange that we had." ...

Hunter Biden told ABC News he does not specifically regret those business ventures, but wishes he had anticipated future attacks from his father's political rivals. "What I regret is not taking into account that there would be a Rudy Giuliani and a president of the United States that would be listening to this -- this ridiculous conspiracy idea."

Nice....

No double standard. It's very simple, provide evidence to support your allegations. Neither Republicans nor the international news sources nor FOX news has substantiated the allegation. It's been debunked, denial doesn't change that.

It is, it has been substantiated. Its logical. Its common sense. There IS a double standard going on.

Biden gave an order to ukraine president and used aid as leverage. The order was fire the prosecuter. Biden claims he was fighting corruption. Biden is charged with stopping an investigation into his son.

Now, contrast that with trump. Trump ASKS (doesnt order) the ukraine president to investigate why biden had the prosecuter fired. Trump does NOT use aid as leverage. Trump holds back aid claiming he wants to fight corruption and pressure other countries to give aid. Trump is charged with blackmailing the ukraine president to manafacture dirt on biden to win an election.

Now, niether of these charges for BOTH of them are fully proven one way or the other, because you must prove intent. Thats quite difficult to do.

So, all we see is there ACTIONS.

So, again, if its wrong for trump, then its wrong for biden. If its right for biden, its right for trump.

You cannot have a double standard and still claim your upholding the republic.

"Do.....you.......understand?

I see you are utterly confused, unless you're deliberately being obtuse.

Oh trust me, its defenately not obtuse. If anything it would be "confused". But, its niether. Im honest and im sincere. Promethious, nor subductionzone want to grant me that and thats why i dont respect them. Amongs other reasons i also dont respect them. I can disagree with someone and still respect them. But, some people i disagree and cannot respect them.

I don't presume to know which.

Well, now you know im sincere. Hopefully.

Firstly, Biden did not ask for a favor. This has been explained to you, in very clear language, repeatedly.

Im aware he gave an order.

So, your repetition makes no sense. Biden didn't go rogue, he didn't try to strike a personal deal, he wasn't sent to convey one thing but then unilaterally decided to go off script. He didn't act outside of protocol. He was authorized to represent the U.S. and voiced the same issues as other countries - IMF, EU and other allies. Serious question: what part of this do you not understand? He didn't act alone, he was one of MANY COUNTRIES' diplomats who called for the same.

Do. you. understand?

I understand, but, what business is it of him what prosecuter is working in another country not his own? Also his motivation is being charged to cover for his son. Which by the way the prosecuter said he was not only investigating the gas company, but also investigating hunter biden.

We know joe biden lied when he was asked if he talked about his sons business. He said no. We know that was a lie because his son said yes he did. So, is he telling the truth about the prosecuter wasn't investigating his son or did the prosecuter tell the truth? Hmmmm, i wonder.

Secondly, the Logan Act (U.S. Code § 953) is not applicable for two reasons. Besides the fact Biden's actions were authorized and represented the US' stance, he also wasn't in violation of it because it pertains to private citizens like Guilani, who IS in clear violation of it. Take your time and read what it actually states:

"Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

Mull it over. Let it sink in. US citizen, i.e. not a duly authorized official. Private citizens cannot negotiate with a foreign government on behalf of the U.S. So, Giuliani not only broke that law but wasn't even acting for the US supposed best interests but covertly for Trump's personal political interests.

Do. you. understand? If not, read any number of articles that explain it. (Example)

And heres the other section of that law

"This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."

The only blind one here is you. You don't see the difference between authorized political actions that follow protocol and the corrupt acts of a criminal narcissist who only serves his own criminal agenda.

Again, your charging his motives. Double standard.

Every American SHOULD be outraged and disgusted by the actions of this president. He's brought nothing but sheer dishonor to the office and has ruined America's reputation.

Oh screw reputation. Theres reputation and then theres.......reality.

Trump is gonna be realected in 2020 and then hes comming for you. Hes gonna throw you in jail.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ya and trump says he did nothing wrong too. So, you should believe him



Nice....



It is, it has been substantiated. Its logical. Its common sense. There IS a double standard going on.

Biden gave an order to ukraine president and used aid as leverage. The order was fire the prosecuter. Biden claims he was fighting corruption. Biden is charged with stopping an investigation into his son.

Now, contrast that with trump. Trump ASKS (doesnt order) the ukraine president to investigate why biden had the prosecuter fired. Trump does NOT use aid as leverage. Trump holds back aid claiming he wants to fight corruption and pressure other countries to give aid. Trump is charged with blackmailing the ukraine president to manafacture dirt on biden to win an election.

Now, niether of these charges for BOTH of them are fully proven one way or the other, because you must prove intent. Thats quite difficult to do.

So, all we see is there ACTIONS.

So, again, if its wrong for trump, then its wrong for biden. If its right for biden, its right for trump.

You cannot have a double standard and still claim your upholding the republic.

"Do.....you.......understand?



Oh trust me, its defenately not obtuse. If anything it would be "confused". But, its niether. Im honest and im sincere. Promethious, nor subductionzone want to grant me that and thats why i dont respect them. Amongs other reasons i also dont respect them. I can disagree with someone and still respect them. But, some people i disagree and cannot respect them.



Well, now you know im sincere. Hopefully.



Im aware he gave an order.



I understand, but, what business is it of him what prosecuter is working in another country not his own? Also his motivation is being charged to cover for his son. Which by the way the prosecuter said he was not only investigating the gas company, but also investigating hunter biden.

We know joe biden lied when he was asked if he talked about his sons business. He said no. We know that was a lie because his son said yes he did. So, is he telling the truth about the prosecuter wasn't investigating his son or did the prosecuter tell the truth? Hmmmm, i wonder.



And heres the other section of that law

"This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."



Again, your charging his motives. Double standard.



Oh screw reputation. Theres reputation and then theres.......reality.

Trump is gonna be realected in 2020 and then hes comming for you. Hes gonna throw you in jail.

You just don't get it. Biden made a legal and publicly open request and used aid to leverage it. Trump made a secret and illegal request and used aid to leverage it.

 

[Jollybear]

You just don't get it. Biden made a legal and publicly open request and used aid to leverage it. Trump made a secret and illegal request and used aid to leverage it.

You just don't get it. Biden gave an order and used aid to leverage it. Legal? Perhaps. Still yet to be seen.

Trump did not make a secret request. His call he made transparent. Its not secret. And NO, TRUMP DID NOT USE AID TO LEVERAGE IT. Thats a FACT.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You just don't get it. Biden gave an order and used aid to leverage it. Legal? Perhaps. Still yet to be seen.

Trump did not make a secret request. His call he made transparent. Its not secret. And NO, TRUMP DID NOT USE AID TO LEVERAGE IT. Thats a FACT.

Wrong, I have at least two functioning brain cells. A person does not get in trouble for making a lawful request and using aid as leverage. But a person making an illegal request and using aid for leverage is in trouble. Trump did not make his call transparent until forced to. They tried to hide it in a secret server. Have you forgotten all of this already. And yes, deny it as much as you like, but Trump did use aid to leverage his illegal act.

 

[Callisto]

It is, it has been substantiated.

WHERE? Provide substantiated evidence. Share it with the world since no government, intelligence, nor media agency has found any. It is established as debunked. Period.

Now, niether of these charges for BOTH of them are fully proven one way or the other, because you must prove intent. Thats quite difficult to do.

Bull****. Trump has been caught red handed. The House doesn't even need to rely on the original whistleblower because Trump provided the transcript that confirms the complaint was true. And every person who's testified has given further confirmation.

Meanwhile, there is ZERO evidence of crime by the Bidens. Unlike you, I support my position:

Bloomberg News:
"There’s also no known evidence that any of the investigations ever involved Hunter Biden. Ukraine’s former prosecutor general, Yuriy Lutsenko, told Bloomberg News in May that there was no evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens....

What evidence suggests that was Biden’s motive?
Pretty much none. The problem with Shokin -- in the eyes of U.S. leaders, their Western allies, the International Monetary Fund and many Ukrainians -- wasn’t that he was being too aggressive about corruption, but that he was being far too lax. In May, Bloomberg News reported that prosecutors in Ukraine had shelved the investigation into Zlochevsky by 2015, meaning Hunter Biden didn’t stand to benefit from the prosecutor’s ouster. Vitaliy Kasko, who pursued the case against Burisma’s owner as deputy prosecutor and is now first deputy prosecutor in the new government, told Bloomberg News that there had been no U.S. pressure to close that case. Former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko also told Bloomberg News that Biden never asked him to close any cases. "

See also:

Fact Check.org
Fact: Trump TV Ad Misleads on Biden and Ukraine
"There is no evidence to support the claim that Hunter Biden was under investigation or that his father acted to kill the investigation of Burisma."

Snopes
Does a C-SPAN Video Show Joe Biden ‘Confessing to Bribery’?
Rating: FALSE

"Shokin was not fired for investigating Burisma, but for his failure to pursue corruption investigations — including investigations connected to Burisma. And Biden wasn’t alone in the effort to push Shokin out, but rather was spearheading the Obama administration’s policy, which represented a consensus among diplomats, officials from various European countries, and the International Monetary Fund that Shokin was an impediment to rooting out corruption in his country."

USA Today
Trump's conspiracy theories thrive in Ukraine, where a young democracy battles corruption and distrust
"We talked with two dozen leaders and investigators in Ukraine. They all agree the claims against Joe and Hunter Biden are baseless. Yet they persist."

And on and on and on. Cite reputable sources that show otherwise or admit you're perpetuating lies.

"This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects."

Cite how that somehow exonerates Giuliani and/or applies to Biden. I need a good laugh, so go on, do it.

Again, your charging his motives. Double standard.

Wrong yet again. Support your claims. Or admit you don't because you can't.

Trump is gonna be realected in 2020 and then hes comming for you. Hes gonna throw you in jail.

Oh, bless your little heart. Nothing makes me chuckle more than when you fall back to juvenile taunts.

But then, foolish comments are all you have, eh?

 

[Prometheus85]

Let me put it like this, zelinski was supposidly blackmailed, right? If he denied he was, why not believe him?

Also, if trump asks a favor with no DIRECT link to aid and thats wrong, ok

But biden gives an order that is DIRECTLY linked to aid and thats alright?

How many times people have to tell you that
Joe Biden was representing the official position of the U.S. government, a position that was also supported by other Western governments and many in Ukraine, who accused Shokin of being soft on corruption.

Trump didn’t give a hoot about corruption in Ukraine, he just wanted dirt on joe Biden and his son.

Ukraine’s current prosecutor, Yuriy Lutsenko, was quoted by Bloomberg News in May of 2019 as saying he had no evidence of wrongdoing by Biden or his son. Bloomberg also reported that the investigation into Burisma was dormant at the time Biden pressed for Shokhin’s ouster.

 

[Prometheus85]

Yea, and trumps reason in asking the favor was also due to fighting corruption.

You can say trumps lying about his motives all you want, but thats purely your opinion.

Also, what is biden doing meddling into ukraines business anyway? Thats there country, if they have a "corrupt prosecuter", then thats on them.

Are u kidding me? Meddling lol

Biden was acting as the Obama administration’s point person on Ukraine, pressed successfully for the ouster of Viktor Shokin as Ukraine’s prosecutor general in 2016. In other words he was appointed by the then president of the United States (Obama) to represent the United States.

Trump Claims, “Joe Biden promised Ukraine $1 billion if they fired the prosecutor investigating his son’s company,”


. What evidence suggests that was Biden’s motive?

Pretty much none. The problem with Shokin -- in the eyes of U.S. leaders, their Western allies, the International Monetary Fund and many Ukrainians -- wasn’t that he was being too aggressive about corruption, but that he was being far too lax. In May, Bloomberg News reported that prosecutors in Ukraine had shelved the investigation into Zlochevsky by 2015, meaning Hunter Biden didn’t stand to benefit from the prosecutor’s ouster. Vitaliy Kasko, who pursued the case against Burisma’s owner as deputy prosecutor and is now first deputy prosecutor in the new government, told Bloomberg News that there had been no U.S. pressure to close that case. Former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko also told Bloomberg News that Biden never asked him to close any cases.

 

[Jose Fly]

Whether or not there was a quid pro quo on Trump's call with the Ukrainian President can no longer be in question. Trump's Chief of Staff, Mick Mulvaney has stated it outright ("we do that sort of thing all the time")...

Yahoo News on Twitter

Interestingly, Mulvaney stated that the quid pro quo was about Ukraine assisting the DoJ in an investigation of the DNC server hack. But when asked about that, DoJ officials said they had no idea what Mulvaney was talking about....

Alex Mallin on Twitter

So we can now move past arguing over whether or not there was a quid pro quo on the call. The WH has clearly stated that there was. The question now is.....is that okay?

 

[Jollybear]

WHERE? Provide substantiated evidence. Share it with the world since no government, intelligence, nor media agency has found any. It is established as debunked. Period.

Asking me to show you the double standard is like a blind person after being shown the tree in front of them then asks "where is the tree?".

Look, i dont think i need to repeat the self evident, obvious double standard that is going on here with trump and biden.

Biden even got asked about the double standard and he never answered the question. Look here > Biden Dodges Question About Son’s Ukraine Work, Talks About Trump And George Washington | HuffPost

Again, if its wrong for trump, its wrong for biden, if its right for biden, its right for trump. Cant have it both ways. If the law is based on prosecuting those you dont like and exonerating those you do like, then the republic is utterly meaningless.

Based on feelings, id love to have subductionzone and promethious jailed and get the electric chair, but, there intellectual dishonesty doesent warrent that level of punishment. In a true republic, i would uphold there freedom, despite the fact i cannot stand those two to a intense degree.

Well, it should be no different with trump. You dont have to like him, but, he did not break any law.

Bull****. Trump has been caught red handed. The House doesn't even need to rely on the original whistleblower because Trump provided the transcript that confirms the complaint was true.

Ya, its kinda funny about that whistleblower. Before the transcript came out, nancy polosi said she did not even need the transcript. And yet she has the gaul to talk about our republic at stake? Yea, at stake by her! At best it shows her seething bias and dislike of trump.

And every person who's testified has given further confirmation.

Meanwhile, there is ZERO evidence of crime by the Bidens. Unlike you, I support my position:

Bloomberg News:
"There’s also no known evidence that any of the investigations ever involved Hunter Biden. Ukraine’s former prosecutor general, Yuriy Lutsenko, told Bloomberg News in May that there was no evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens....

What evidence suggests that was Biden’s motive?
Pretty much none. The problem with Shokin -- in the eyes of U.S. leaders, their Western allies, the International Monetary Fund and many Ukrainians -- wasn’t that he was being too aggressive about corruption, but that he was being far too lax. In May, Bloomberg News reported that prosecutors in Ukraine had shelved the investigation into Zlochevsky by 2015, meaning Hunter Biden didn’t stand to benefit from the prosecutor’s ouster. Vitaliy Kasko, who pursued the case against Burisma’s owner as deputy prosecutor and is now first deputy prosecutor in the new government, told Bloomberg News that there had been no U.S. pressure to close that case. Former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko also told Bloomberg News that Biden never asked him to close any cases. "

So, basically one persons word against another.

See also:

Fact Check.org
Fact: Trump TV Ad Misleads on Biden and Ukraine
"There is no evidence to support the claim that Hunter Biden was under investigation or that his father acted to kill the investigation of Burisma."

Again, one persons word against another.

Snopes
Does a C-SPAN Video Show Joe Biden ‘Confessing to Bribery’?
Rating: FALSE

"Shokin was not fired for investigating Burisma, but for his failure to pursue corruption investigations — including investigations connected to Burisma. And Biden wasn’t alone in the effort to push Shokin out, but rather was spearheading the Obama administration’s policy, which represented a consensus among diplomats, officials from various European countries, and the International Monetary Fund that Shokin was an impediment to rooting out corruption in his country."

USA Today
Trump's conspiracy theories thrive in Ukraine, where a young democracy battles corruption and distrust
"We talked with two dozen leaders and investigators in Ukraine. They all agree the claims against Joe and Hunter Biden are baseless. Yet they persist."

And on and on and on. Cite reputable sources that show otherwise or admit you're perpetuating lies.

And how do you know those sources you gave me are right? Thats there opinion. Its there word against others. Skoktin said he was investigating hunter. Also a guy who worked for shoktin said he was not told why he was fired. And he also said he quit working for shoktin, but it was not due to corruption on his part.

Cite how that somehow exonerates Giuliani and/or applies to Biden. I need a good laugh, so go on, do it.


Wrong yet again. Support your claims. Or admit you don't because you can't.


Oh, bless your little heart. Nothing makes me chuckle more than when you fall back to juvenile taunts.

But then, foolish comments are all you have, eh?

Well, i got you to bless my little heart. Atleast im making some headway.