DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
I have very little self esteem. And you're going off topic. One minute you're talking about the Spirit, the next you're talking asking me which scriptures. Do you even know what scripture is?
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Don't Blame Me For Not Accepting Jesus
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
I have very little self esteem. And you're going off topic. One minute you're talking about the Spirit, the next you're talking asking me which scriptures. Do you even know what scripture is?
No, actually, you brought up Spirit.
As though you know which interpretation of which Scriptures are from the Spirit and which are not.
Human history is loaded with Scripture. I have heard and read tons of the stuff.
Tom
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Again, you do not know the Spirit. So your opinion of scripture is of little value to me. You cannot know anything unless you learn it from the Spirit.
The heavens and the Earth will pass away but the word of God stands forever. Learn from the Spirit of God. All else will be destroyed in due course.
Again, you make a vague and supported assertion as though you know more about God than I do. You don't even seem to know the Bible very well.
I think that's why you dodged the posts that started this exchange between us.
Tom
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
IF by some miracle I end up facing a creator God after I die, I'm not worried in the least that I'll be punished for failing to believe in Him. In fact, I expect that I'll be praised for having used the rational logical thinking mind that He created me with, instead of turning my rational logical thinking brain off in order to accommodate my blind faith.
The Holy Bottom Burp
Active Member
No mate, I'm open minded enough, I used to be a Christian once. However, the more I looked into it, the less I found it believable, the more I doubted. So then I went in search of verifying the historicity of the bible, of Christian claims, reading books by Christian authors of course; it really didn't help, in fact I'd say it made things worse. I was expecting compelling evidence, I didn't find it. I didn't want Christianity to be false, my whole life was invested in it. after all. However, intellectual honesty wouldn't let me go on living a lie, preaching a message I no longer believed in. So here I am!
You are welcome to debate that one with LDS Christians, I have no opinion, I don't believe in the LDS Jesus anymore than the one you worship, just making the observation they seem a little more inclusive, a little less judgemental. Not "one strike and you're out".
Yeah, comments like that are what can put people off joining whatever denomination of Christianity you belong to mate. You almost seem to relish the prospect of them roasting in hell, wishing they had listened to your version of the gospel? Genuine and sincere people who spend their lives worshipping a deity they believe to be a real one, sent to a place of eternal conscious torment? Your deity sounds like a real charmer!
james bond
Well-Known Member
Was it you, Tom, who has read the entire Bible?
In it, "So, do you believe in Jesus?
Do you believe that Jesus is God in human form (John 1:1, 14)? Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins (1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21), for which you deserve eternal separation from God (Romans 6:23)? Do you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus, God incarnate, is the only adequate payment for your sins (1 John 2:2; John 14:6; Acts 4:12)?
Do you believe these things? If so, great, but believing the facts about Jesus is only part of the equation. Biblical faith/belief is far more than believing certain things to be true. Biblical saving faith is also trusting/relying on those facts.
A chair is a good illustration. You can look at a chair and believe it is made of materials strong enough to support your weight, and you can believe that it was assembled correctly. But that is not biblical faith. Biblical faith is sitting in the chair. It is actually relying on the chair to hold your weight off the ground.
Are you trusting that Jesus is your Savior? Are you relying on His death as the full payment for your sin debt? Are you depending on His resurrection as the guarantee that you, too, will be raised to eternal life after death? Not that it could ever happen, but if the “chair” of Jesus Christ were pulled out from beneath you, spiritually speaking, would you hit the ground, or are you also relying on things in addition to the chair?
If you understand and believe what the Bible says about Jesus, and if you are trusting in those truths as the basis for salvation—you are saved! You “believe in Jesus” in the biblical sense."
What does it mean to believe in Jesus?
It isn't just the acceptance, but actually following Jesus. Recently, we had the tragic life and death of Aaron Hernandez, an ex-NFL football player. He seemed to "believe" in John 3:16 and marked his Bible as such to leave no doubt. However, Jesus can look into your heart and see how you believed and acted. I would think Jesus knows because he saw all the sins of humankind flash before his face before he died. That was worse than the physical pain. That's what made him cry out.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
We can choose to believe something.
For example, you can choose to believe that the next stranger you encounter is a good person. You might not have any evidence that he's a good person.
You can also choose to believe that he is an idiot.
You can rationalize your beliefs however you wish.
You could also choose not to hold an opinion about him.
These are choices you could make if you wanted to make them.
Non one is twisting your arm to make you believe anything about the people you meet. It's entirely up to you. You get to choose and the blame for that decision (if there is any) rests entirely on you.
That's fine. You can have rational reasons for your decisions if you want, but you don't actually have to have rational reasons for a decision. You are able to make irrational decisions if you want. You can choose to believe things that are difficult to believe and are not rational. Lot's of people do it. They do it all the time. You aren't an exception.
What you choose to believe is up to you. It's your fault. The rationality or irrationality of your belief is your fault because it is your belief and not someone else's belief. If other people have beliefs (rational or irrational), then they are responsible for those beliefs, just as you are responsible for yours.
The idea that you are not in control is your idea and you are responsible for it. If you remain unconvinced because arguments are irrational (or rational on the other side), then it is still your choice. You may think that because you are making "the only rational choice", it means that you didn't really have the option of another choice. But that's not true. You could've chosen the irrational option. So it's always your fault, if your beliefs don't work out.
So if, for example, a bunch of people believe they are hitching a ride on the Alien Comet Mothership and things don't work out that way, then it is their fault. They are responsible. And if it works, then they can take the credit for being right.
I must admit, that is one of the primary reasons why I left Christendom. Who could love a deity who delighted in the torture of anyone....(Jeremiah 32:35) but I saw "the church" emulate this god in their treatment of those who failed the accusations of the Grand Inquisitor.
When this kind of unchristian conduct entered "the church"....Christ left the building and never returned. Christendom became a mish-mash of bickering denominations, all teaching different doctrines, yet still somehow claiming to be united as Christ's disciples. It will not end well for those who misrepresent the Christ and his Father. (Matthew 7:21-23)
After my own investigation into "Christianity" as represented by their teachings, I soon came to realize that none of what they taught was true. Most of their doctrines were the result of Roman Catholic dogma 'adopted' long after Christ left the earthly scene. It was foretold to happen, but Christendom seems to want to ignore that warning. They did exactly what Judaism did before them, following exactly the same path.....mirror images of one another.....accepting the 'traditions of men' over the word of God. (Matthew 15:7-9)
The Bible is true, but Christendom's interpretation is skewed towards pagan beliefs that infiltrated the "church" long after the Bible was written. (2 Peter 2:1)
When I dig into the Bible, I like to take my information from a variety of sources, but almost never from those who adhere to Christendom's version of events. A thorough understanding of the scriptures means investigating the meanings of words in their original languages....taking all verses in context.....comparing translations.....and understanding God's original purpose in putting material beings on a material planet in the first place.
Starting with a bigger picture allows us to fit everything into it, rather than having random pieces of a puzzle and not knowing where to put them. That leads to the big questions going unanswered, causing frustration and having to rely on blind faith. No one's faith should be blind. Whenever Jesus was questioned, he referred to God's word as his authority in all things. We need to do the same....but the leaders of Christendom have no idea how to answer the tough questions. No wonder her numbers are dwindling.
The idea behind the topic of this thread seems to want to pass the blame for our lack of understanding onto to God because he somehow failed to make things clearer to everyone. But the simple truth is, we are all here because God told the first humans to 'multiply and fill the earth'...which they did. He did not foreordain who would respond to him as a deity or who would obey him as such...he left that up to us. Free will.
The events in Eden explain why we are in this sad predicament in the first place....humans wanted to make their own decisions about what was 'good and evil'......so he let them, knowing that that this kind of freedom would prove that we can't do that successfully on our own. (Jeremiah 10:23) How long have we been trying to do it "our way" and failing at every kind of self rule? How many religions can we choose from? How many life styles are open to us? Our choices in all these things tell God who we are and what we really desire in life. That will be the basis for his judgment of us. We actually determine our own destiny by the choices we make.
Some will keep wanting to prove that they can do it 'their way', but others will see the folly of it and humbly submit to the authority of the Creator. In that humble submission, is an avenue for God to "draw" that individual to his truth (John 6:44).....something that is not revealed to the ones intent on proving that they don't need Him.
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whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Or perhaps the issue is that you already have issues where you are alienated from God and will just remain alienated without reconciliation? Do you love God or are do you find Him wearisome?
Malachi speaks on both strong and weak loves as he closes the Old Te…
Malachi speaks on both strong and weak loves as he closes the Old Te…
Skwim
Veteran Member
But don't you choose them because it makes sense to choose them rather than not? I would certainly hope so. And what I'm saying is that to do so there's some kind of compelling rational at work in your mind that makes you decide A makes more sense than B. Thing is, at the time of making sense you have no say as to how this compelling rational is going to work. It's a function of the information you've accumulated over the years and how the elements of this information are weighed. You may certainly say "It makes sense because of a, b, c, and d." but you had no choice in the emergence of a, b, c,and d. Perhaps element e should have been part of the mix, but for whatever reason it never appeared (maybe long forgotten? ) and maybe e would have been a real game changer, making you decide option A didn't make sense after all. Point is, you had no choice in the matter of e's appearance, or lack thereof. And if the lack of element e did make you erroneously decide A made more sense than B, you can't be held accountable for it.
Taking another tack, perhaps this will help you understand:
Throughout your life you accumulated decision relevant elements a, b, c, f, h, i, j, l, o, and q which, unbeknownst to you, will be brought into play in making the decision that A makes sense.
I, on the other hand, throughout my life accumulated decision relevant elements a, b, c, d, e, i, k, l, m, n and q, which, unbeknownst to me, will be brought into play in making the decision that A does not makes sense.
Now, you didn't choose to accumulate a, b, c, f, h, i, j, l, o, and q for the purposes of deciding whether A makes sense or not, and I didn't choose to accumulate a, b, c, d, e, i, k, l, m, n and q for the same purpose. So, should either of us be held accountable for our choice regarding A?---I leave it to you to figure out why not.
I, on the other hand, throughout my life accumulated decision relevant elements a, b, c, d, e, i, k, l, m, n and q, which, unbeknownst to me, will be brought into play in making the decision that A does not makes sense.
Now, you didn't choose to accumulate a, b, c, f, h, i, j, l, o, and q for the purposes of deciding whether A makes sense or not, and I didn't choose to accumulate a, b, c, d, e, i, k, l, m, n and q for the same purpose. So, should either of us be held accountable for our choice regarding A?---I leave it to you to figure out why not.
So how many people do you know who set out to purposely make irrational decisions?
The rest of your remarks show a lack of having grasped the essences of what I have said and I have no desire to spend the time explaining. So have a good day.
.
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Yep, so this kind of crap is insulting and sickening.
People need to take personal responsibility for their actions, and that includes placing people on the 'side' of hypothetical child rapists simply because they don't share a belief set with you.
Top ten most disgraceful and disrespectful posts I've seen here. Congrats.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Have a good weekend and 4th. Since you are not of the Spirit you and I cannot possibly see anything on the same level.
The quote wasn't about you or any other person changing minds, but an omnipotent, omniscient god doing that. Dillahunty is telling you that there is no such god that wants to change his mind, the evidence being that that hasn't happened.
What good arguments do you have to change minds about gods or any other religious concept?
Faith based thought has nothing to recommend it. And presently, that's pretty much what would be required to believe anything about gods. If that's what it takes, then you are correct: you have no way to reach me. You're going to need to come up with evidence that suggests a god.
Why do you believe that a god exists, and that you know anything about it? Give me your best argument and evidence. Being open-minded, I will consider it impartially and with a willingness to be convinced if your argument is compelling. If all you have is what I'm accustomed to - for example, the world looks too beautiful and complex to you to have organized itself - then you have no argument, just an opinion.
Is this your argument to become a Christian?
As Larry the Cable Guy told his girlfriend when he came home to find her waiting for him in her crotchless panties and asked him, "You want some of this?" my answer is the equivalent of his: "Hell no. Look at what it done to your britches."
What do you think that your religion has to offer?
Then you are saying that your opinion of scripture is of little value to anybody else, since they can only learn it from the Spirit.
You're also saying that the scripture itself is of no value to anybody who doesn't know the Spirit and who therefore cannot know anything.
Of course, no two Christians interpret scripture the same way, so how many of them know the Spirit if they're coming to differing and often contradictory understandings?
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
If you knew and were known by the Spirit you would understand all these things.
Christians often resort to 'lack' of receiving Holy Spirit, as a reason for unbelievers not understanding things like:
1 How God could be a man
2 The Trinity
3 Original Sin
4 Preservation of the NT from 1st Century to 21st C.
The fact as you say, no 2 Christians can agree on core Doctrines 1-3, simply proves there is no such thing as a 'holy spirit' residing within. It is simply a conviction of belief people hold, just like any other person might be sure (convicted) of their religion/belief whether that be Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam etc
David said that unbelievers cannot know anything without knowing the Spirit. That makes it impossible to understand what the Bible says unless you already believe it, which would be a mean trick if you can't understand it. That's a classic Catch 22.
I can't choose to believe or disbelieve. I think that I probably could as a child, but not any more. My mind tells me what's believable, not the other way around.
He probably is an exception. There are many exceptions.
That's a nice example of why one shouldn't believe without a rational reason to believe. You're probably referring to the Heaven's Gate cult, all dead as a result of believing without sufficient evidence.