Don't try and say your omnimax god has a reason to allow suffering

[MSizer]

I don't understand how anyone can possibly conclude that god even exists, let alone that he is omnibenevolent, while children are born with aids, 8 year olds are being raped by their uncles, innocent people are conviced and executed in various countries. It doesn't make sense at all. Anyone can rationalize anything after it's already happend. When someone makes a hypothesis about god and in so doing predicts something unlikely, then I'll give that person's ideas a second thought. Until that happens (and I won't hold my breath) the whole concept of a loving (or even unconcerned) divine intelligent power is utterly absurd. Suffering happens, we do the best we can to deal with it. Unfortunately for some they are born into conditions worse than others. Yes, it's very sad. Yes, we have a moral responsibility to help them. If you think that means praying, you may as well sacrifice a goat while you're at it. The pope prays for peace every year and god hasn't gotten around to fixing that yet. If suffering is necessary, why does the pope bother praying? Why does anybody bother praying for anything? It's completely futile.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Someone makes a silly, provocative thread like this, and gets eighty responses in three hours. I try and make intelligent and challenging threads, and I get about twenty responses in three days. What the?

I don't see anyone learning anything with this sort of thread, I don't see anyone challenging themselves in any regards. Everyone is just reheating old arguments from the last debate of this nature.

In fact, most people could probably find the last thread identical to this one, find their response, and quote it on here, and no one would notice the difference.

Watch the merry-go-round go round...

By all means, feel free to settle this silly debate rather than whining.

 

[CarlinKnew]

God allows bad things to happen as retribution for man's continuing move toward independent thought. Details to come.
​

An all-powerful god has no need for retribution. If he wanted us to think independently he could make it happen without the suffering. Remember, and I can't repeat this enough: he makes the rules. That's why all arguments in favor of an omnimax god will always fail.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Remember, and I can't repeat this enough: he makes the rules. That's why all arguments in favor of an omnimax god will always fail.

I've yet to see anyone, ever, address this. Any argument which does not address this, doesn't address the problem at all.

 

[MoonWater]

there is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is experienced regardless but suffering is a state of mind that comes from focusing on that pain and letting it eat away at you rather than just accepting it and moving on, being happy with what you have. Suffering comes when one chooses to focus on the negative instead of the positive. As such I am in agreement with riverwolf here that we cause our own suffering and can do away with our own suffering as well, god doesn't need to do it for us.

As for the whole pain issue I can speak from my own perspective that I would not want god to take away my pain for me or alleviate my troubles for me. If he tried to do that I would hate him for it. After all I was one of those kids who would beat the ground in frustration over a puzzle but would start kicking and screaming if anyone dared try to help me. The pain and yes the suffering that I have experienced in my life(while yes a walk in the park compared to what many others have experienced) has made me who I am and I would rather learn to deal with these things myself then have god take care of all of it for me. I don't want god to spend the rest of eternity coddling me like a baby. I want to be free to grow and evolve to reach my fullest potential and thus become more than I could possibly have imagined.

Also to say an all-powerful god must alleviate all pain and suffering on earth in order to be benevolent first assumes that pain is actually bad and second seeks to hold god to our own limited perspective and understanding. We cause our own suffering and while pain certainly doesn't feel good that doesn't necessarily make it bad. I highly doubt an all-powerful god would have the same perspective on pain and suffering or on good and bad, that we do. And I fail to see the point of trying to hold a god, who would obviously be so far beyond us and our understanding, to our own perspective and understanding. To me that seems like trying to fit the ocean inside of a mug, it just doesn't work.

 

[LooseEnd]

I've yet to see anyone, ever, address this. Any argument which does not address this, doesn't address the problem at all.

No one can address this. The problem is why can't they see that they can't address it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

No one can address this. The problem is why can't they see that they can't address it.

Excellent point.

 

[MoonWater]

An all-powerful god has no need for retribution. If he wanted us to think independently he could make it happen without the suffering. Remember, and I can't repeat this enough: he makes the rules. That's why all arguments in favor of an omnimax god will always fail.

No one can address this. The problem is why can't they see that they can't address it.

Also to say an all-powerful god must alleviate all pain and suffering on earth in order to be benevolent first assumes that pain is actually bad and second seeks to hold god to our own limited perspective and understanding. We cause our own suffering and while pain certainly doesn't feel good that doesn't necessarily make it bad. I highly doubt an all-powerful god would have the same perspective on pain and suffering or on good and bad, that we do. And I fail to see the point of trying to hold a god, who would obviously be so far beyond us and our understanding, to our own perspective and understanding. To me that seems like trying to fit the ocean inside of a mug, it just doesn't work.

There I addressed it

 

[CarlinKnew]

Also to say an all-powerful god must alleviate all pain and suffering on earth in order to be benevolent first assumes that pain is actually bad ...

Pointless suffering is bad. To inflict unnecessary suffering is evil.

... and second seeks to hold god to our own limited perspective and understanding.

This is the argument that Christians attempt to make, that suffering may be useful, but we don't understand why. It fails. Here's why:

You say, "Perhaps x can only be achieved through suffering."
Well guess what? Your all-powerful god could make x achievable with no suffering necessary, no matter what x is. Remember: all-powerful. He makes the rules.

 

[CarlinKnew]

There I addressed it

Unsuccessfully, as is to be expected when defending the omnimax, contradictory myth.

 

[gzusfrk]

When Christian apologists make comparisons like the above, do they forget, according to their own mythology, that their god is all-powerful? All-powerful means: god makes the rules. It means: there doesn't need to be suffering unless he wants it that way. To make someone suffer needlessly isn't love. So take your pick; is he all-loving or all-powerful, because he can't be both. Unless you think "love" is to inflict unnecessary suffering.

Christians insist that it must be necessary for god to make us suffer, that it must be for our own good. Well then he's not all-powerful is he? Consider this:
You say, "Perhaps x can only be achieved through suffering."
Well guess what? Your all-powerful god could make x achievable with no suffering necessary, no matter what x is. Remember: all-powerful. He makes the rules.

So don't try and say god has a good reason to allow suffering, that it's beyond our understanding, and then turn around and say he's all-loving and all-powerful. It's a contradiction.

So what is it that you would have God do. End all suffering? stop all pain?

 

[richardlowellt]

Why should God remove suffering when we have the ability to do so and yet as an entire species make no effort to do so?

Lets try the pain and suffering that accompanies Cancer, or any of the parasitic diseases, how about the parasitic worm that burrows into the eyeballs of children. I didn't know we had the ability to stop the agony of cancer. How are we doing with all the genetic diseases? I just love the fact that this all powerful all loving God thought it was such a great idea to create us with no defense against all the parasitic diseases he sprinked around the globe.

 

[Beaudreaux]

So what is it that you would have God do. End all suffering? stop all pain?

Isn't that what a good PERSON would do if they could? Why not the almighty (who supposedly can)?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Isn't that what a good PERSON would do if they could? Why not the almighty (who supposedly can)?

Actually, a good person, who was all-powerful, wouldn't have created pain and suffering in their universe in the first place. I know I wouldn't have.

 

[CarlinKnew]

So what is it that you would have God do. End all suffering? stop all pain?

I wouldn't expect a fictional character to do anything. What I would like is for omnimax-creator-god apologists to recognize the contradiction staring them in the face.

 

[MoonWater]

Pointless suffering is bad. To inflict unnecessary suffering is evil.

Again pain and suffering are two different things. We create our own suffering based on our perspective of the situation. Pain is bad or evil in your point of view. God may not have that point of view and if god is omnimax, meaning in your own words "he makes the rules" then that means if, in his perspective, the pain we experience in life is helpful and "for our own good" then it is, after all he makes the rules right?

This is the argument that Christians attempt to make, that suffering may be useful, but we don't understand why. It fails. Here's why:

Originally Posted by OP
You say, "Perhaps x can only be achieved through suffering."
Well guess what? Your all-powerful god could make x achievable with no suffering necessary, no matter what x is. Remember: all-powerful. He makes the rules.

see above

 

[Just_me_Mike]

So don't try and say god has a good reason to allow suffering, that it's beyond our understanding, and then turn around and say he's all-loving and all-powerful. It's a contradiction.

What the hey, I am like a punching bag, so here goes.

Let's equate suffering to the equivalent of what a plant goes through when transforming from seed to whatever it becomes.

To that plant, it may be painful and a sensation that is horrible, but out of it, it becomes something beautiful (sometimes, because sometimes it doesn't make it)

So if we look at pain and suffering as growth in the sense of what a plant goes through, it can be the same for us in this life. It is painful but what will become will be beautiful, for some.

To me the tricky thing is, we have figured out how to use this pain as a tool to control people, and have demonized it for many reasons that aid our cause.

It is here and we have to deal with it. If one doesn't believe in God, pain becomes a tool to lash out at those that believe in an Omnimax God. For those that do believe in Omnimax God, it is just part of growing.

Finally, the question is WHY? That is the thrust of this thread, I think, at least one of the thrusts. I can only imagine that the pain and suffering WE experience is nothing more than what we think of the seed that has to experience such transformations to become a tree or whatever it is going to be. How much thought do we have for those little seeds, and how aweful is it really to us? All we are concerned with is what is the seed going to become, either good or bad. It could be the same for God. It could be we make more out of pain than it really is.

Let the punching begin! (oh and by the way, I am not saying I believe what I wrote, I just think it makes a little itty bit of sense, but could be entirely wrong too!)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again pain and suffering are two different things. We create our own suffering based on our perspective of the situation. Pain is bad or evil in your point of view. God may not have that point of view and if god is omnimax, meaning in your own words "he makes the rules" then that means if, in his perspective, the pain we experience in life is helpful and "for our own good" then it is, after all he makes the rules right?

IOW, what is bad might just actually be good. Hmm.

I see one big problem with this. It seems like you're effectively saying that human suffering is necessary in order to acheive some greater goal that God may have in mind. However, to an omnimax God, nothing is necessary. There exists some way for God to acheive that goal without suffering.

If an omnimax God exists, then all suffering is needless suffering.

 

[CarlinKnew]

God may not have that point of view and if god is omnimax, meaning in your own words "he makes the rules" then that means if, in his perspective, the pain we experience in life is helpful and "for our own good" then it is, after all he makes the rules right?

If you say that he created a system in which we benefit from pain, then he did so needlessly, and the infliction of needless suffering is evil. Considering that he is all-powerful, he could've created a system in which we benefit from, say, flying kites instead.

 

[MoonWater]

What the hey, I am like a punching bag, so here goes.

Let's equate suffering to the equivalent of what a plant goes through when transforming from seed to whatever it becomes.

To that plant, it may be painful and a sensation that is horrible, but out of it, it becomes something beautiful (sometimes, because sometimes it doesn't make it)

So if we look at pain and suffering as growth in the sense of what a plant goes through, it can be the same for us in this life. It is painful but what will become will be beautiful, for some.

To me the tricky thing is, we have figured out how to use this pain as a tool to control people, and have demonized it for many reasons that aid our cause.

It is here and we have to deal with it. If one doesn't believe in God, pain becomes a tool to lash out at those that believe in an Omnimax God. For those that do believe in Omnimax God, it is just part of growing.

Finally, the question is WHY? That is the thrust of this thread, I think, at least one of the thrusts. I can only imagine that the pain and suffering WE experience is nothing more than what we think of the seed that has to experience such transformations to become a tree or whatever it is going to be. How much thought do we have for those little seeds, and how aweful is it really to us? All we are concerned with is what is the seed going to become, either good or bad. It could be the same for God. It could be we make more out of pain than it really is.

Let the punching begin! (oh and by the way, I am not saying I believe what I wrote, I just think it makes a little itty bit of sense, but could be entirely wrong too!)

Good points itwillend, though I have to say I disagree with what I bolded above. After all I don't believe in a god and I'm defending the omnimax god. But yeah, pain is only bad if we view it as such. good and bad are not absolute values but merely perspectives and as such if we stop viewing pain as bad and "oh woe is me" and instead start viewing it as an opportunity to change and evolve then pain becomes transformative rather than simply a burden. I agree that we do make more of pain than it really is.