Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[PruePhillip]

Really? I thought we had put this to bed.
A person's misunderstanding of a physical event does not change the nature of that event. The person is simply mistaken.

I refer you back to the train analogy.
Another is to stand under a skyscraper when the wind is blowing clouds away from you. It looks like the building is falling on you - but it isn't! The fact that it seems like it is falling on you doesn't change the realist that it isn't. Your "observer's perspective" is irrelevant to the process.

So you are in super deep space - not even a galaxy in view. Something flashes past you. So did this object pass you or did you pass it?
Einstein said it doesn't matter - it's relative motion.
Relative motion can put you at the center of the whole universe. Who is going to argue?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The formation of the Earth and moon, explained

The world, yes and what caused the world and what caused that? But yes, if you limit it to the world, then yes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, we know that you don't believe anything is real - even your own belief that nothing is real.
Doesn't really get us anywhere though, does it?

No, I believe in real. I just don't know it. There is a difference. Stop making a straw man out of so you can deal with it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And that is a feeling/emotion of sorts. That is also not proof.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's not mathematical proof, no.

But it may be proof in the legal sense, a satisfactory demonstration of the claim, or at the least a demonstration significantly more satisfactory than the demonstration presented for the contrary case.

In reality there are no absolute statements outside this sentence.

So there is no absolute proof for real? Now we are getting somewhere at last.

 

[Kenny]

If I recall right, you manage okay and you were overall lucky in the life you have had based on what you have wrote in other threads. You then explain that with God.
The rest of us then ask: What about the unlucky ones?
And you don't seen to answer that.

Good question but to answer with detail.

When I played basketball (about half a century ago) we use to do this:
When someone made a 3 point shot, we would throw the ball back and say, "Luck"
If he made it again, we would throw it back and say, "Even a broken clock gets it right two time".
If he made three in a row we said, "you got it!"

Luck has nothing to do with it and anyone can get answered prayer and improve if they do it within the spiritual principles (in the Christian worldview)

I received Jesus at 28, so to say that "I was lucky" is to forget my past. I remember staring in a Tom Collins drink at a local bar appropriately called, Mac's Zoo Room and sayin in my mind, "where are all the miracles I have heard about from the Bible"? You only see the miracle of pink elephants in alcohol.

After I gave my life to Jesus, it all changed. Not that every prayer was answered in as much as I was growing in knowledge and understanding. But that knowledge and understanding is for all.

As a Christian, we believe the following:

"2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,"

So, the more knowledge and understanding, the more grace is multiplied

My past includes divorced parents that caused siblings, including me, to go haywire. Within the siblings of 5 we have double digits divorces, a sister with a pregnancy at the age of 14, multiple abortions, suicidal tendencies and alcoholism. The next generation produced the same with drug addictions added to it along with a suicide.

All needed Jesus to move forward.

My wife, who came from an abusive alcoholic home, saw murder, prostitution, witchcraft, and wife beatings among other things.

They also received Jesus and had a life change.

So we were hardly "lucky".

But to the question of "what about the others". That is why we go around the world and preach the gospel because everyone needs (within the Christian worldview) a relationship with God in a face-to-face encounter through Jesus Christ. The answer to all the "unlucky ones" is that they are also included in the love of God who will make the difference in their lives should they so choose.

(I'm sure that other religions have their own dictates on the "how"? We simply say it is a gift through Jesus Christ)

 

[Sheldon]

You can't handle the truth!

Post some, and I'll give it due diligence.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Nope, you just have an hilarious lack of understanding here.

Apparently you also if you think the world was created by uncaused causes.

I have never remotely claimed anything about the earth, with the word created in it, so another tedious straw man. I did offer a link to a scientific explanation of how the earth was formed, since as I said you seem woefully ill informed on the topic. It doesn't include any superstition of course, no magic, and no appeals to mystery, it is also well supported by objective evidence, and has explanatory powers, so maybe not your bag at all.

Here is a Google search that links multiple sites offering the scientific facts.

Do you also believe in married bachelors?

Are you claiming bachelors can't get married? Your endless use of such straw men, just indicates how irrational your arguments are.

 

[Sheldon]

Policy said: ↑
All humans have hallucinations

Seriously? What do you hallucinate about?

Have you never seen pictures that trick your brain into something that isn't really there? Or seen a face in some clouds, or seen a a tawdry magic show, one assumes you don't believe the illusionist is actually performing real magic? They would all fall under the banner of an experiencing a seemingly real perception of something, not actually present.

 

[Sheldon]

So you are admitting that your explanation could leave room for God, and in fact requires a uncaused cause?

No, he is pointing out the contradiction that leads inevitable to a special pleading fallacy, in first cause arguments apologists use.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't consider temporary miss interpretation of an object hallucinating.

Really? Since hallucinating is defined as experiencing a seemingly real perception of something not actually present, you seem to be wrong.

 

[Sheldon]

Good question but to answer with detail.

When I played basketball (about half a century ago) we use to do this:
When someone made a 3 point shot, we would throw the ball back and say, "Luck"
If he made it again, we would throw it back and say, "Even a broken clock gets it right two time".
If he made three in a row we said, "you got it!"

Luck has nothing to do with it and anyone can get answered prayer and improve if they do it within the spiritual principles (in the Christian worldview)

I received Jesus at 28, so to say that "I was lucky" is to forget my past. I remember staring in a Tom Collins drink at a local bar appropriately called, Mac's Zoo Room and sayin in my mind, "where are all the miracles I have heard about from the Bible"? You only see the miracle of pink elephants in alcohol.

After I gave my life to Jesus, it all changed. Not that every prayer was answered in as much as I was growing in knowledge and understanding. But that knowledge and understanding is for all.

As a Christian, we believe the following:

"2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,"

So, the more knowledge and understanding, the more grace is multiplied

My past includes divorced parents that caused siblings, including me, to go haywire. Within the siblings of 5 we have double digits divorces, a sister with a pregnancy at the age of 14, multiple abortions, suicidal tendencies and alcoholism. The next generation produced the same with drug addictions added to it along with a suicide.

All needed Jesus to move forward.

My wife, who came from an abusive alcoholic home, saw murder, prostitution, witchcraft, and wife beatings among other things.

They also received Jesus and had a life change.

So we were hardly "lucky".

But to the question of "what about the others". That is why we go around the world and preach the gospel because everyone needs (within the Christian worldview) a relationship with God in a face-to-face encounter through Jesus Christ. The answer to all the "unlucky ones" is that they are also included in the love of God who will make the difference in their lives should they so choose.

(I'm sure that other religions have their own dictates on the "how"? We simply say it is a gift through Jesus Christ)

Well I'm glad you turned your life around, but as has been explained, plenty of people do this without religion, and plenty of people cite different religions and deities as the reason for making such profound changes in their life. Most people acknowledge that a strong motivational force, like a religious belief helps some to make this profound change, but this does represent objective evidence for the veracity of those beliefs.

Put simply correlation is not causation.

 

[Sheldon]

Let's rephrase - if I am on the moon I watch 'Earth rise' and if I am on the Earth I watch 'moon rise'
Who is rising ?

Neither, the perception does not match reality, which is that the moon orbits the earth due to gravity.

 

[Sheldon]

LOL... I am talking overall... but you probable will deny that too...

Well all you have offered is unevidenced rhetoric, so what's to deny? You can't even quote one example to support your claim, when aske to.

As I said before, when you have something of import, happy to address it.

Yes your evasive handwaving, dressed up in ad hominem has been duly noted.

Simply giving your opinions as if it were truth isn't a part of the discussion.

 

[PruePhillip]

Neither the perception does not match reality, which is that the moon orbits the earth due to gravity.

If I am in deep deep space, not even a galaxy in sight. My spacecraft is flying foward in the darkness when I see an object
hurtle past me at great speed. WHO is moving, my vehicle, or this object? Should be a basic question using the rocket
equation and Newton's equations to 'prove' it is me who is moving - but is that right?
It's all down to the observer.
And an astronaut on the moon can say the earth is rising because he sees everything revolve around him.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Good question but to answer with detail.

When I played basketball (about half a century ago) we use to do this:
When someone made a 3 point shot, we would throw the ball back and say, "Luck"
If he made it again, we would throw it back and say, "Even a broken clock gets it right two time".
If he made three in a row we said, "you got it!"

Luck has nothing to do with it and anyone can get answered prayer and improve if they do it within the spiritual principles (in the Christian worldview)

I received Jesus at 28, so to say that "I was lucky" is to forget my past. I remember staring in a Tom Collins drink at a local bar appropriately called, Mac's Zoo Room and sayin in my mind, "where are all the miracles I have heard about from the Bible"? You only see the miracle of pink elephants in alcohol.

After I gave my life to Jesus, it all changed. Not that every prayer was answered in as much as I was growing in knowledge and understanding. But that knowledge and understanding is for all.

As a Christian, we believe the following:

"2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,"

So, the more knowledge and understanding, the more grace is multiplied

My past includes divorced parents that caused siblings, including me, to go haywire. Within the siblings of 5 we have double digits divorces, a sister with a pregnancy at the age of 14, multiple abortions, suicidal tendencies and alcoholism. The next generation produced the same with drug addictions added to it along with a suicide.

All needed Jesus to move forward.

My wife, who came from an abusive alcoholic home, saw murder, prostitution, witchcraft, and wife beatings among other things.

They also received Jesus and had a life change.

So we were hardly "lucky".

But to the question of "what about the others". That is why we go around the world and preach the gospel because everyone needs (within the Christian worldview) a relationship with God in a face-to-face encounter through Jesus Christ. The answer to all the "unlucky ones" is that they are also included in the love of God who will make the difference in their lives should they so choose.

(I'm sure that other religions have their own dictates on the "how"? We simply say it is a gift through Jesus Christ)

Yeah, now we got Jack, Just like you, age and all and he gets a fast moving degenerative neurological disease and is dead within years.

I am like you for my childhood in effect and I did it without religion. What you have done is to learn to cope including the use of religion.
What I have done is to learn to cope without religion. So yes, religion works up to a point, but you can do it without it and get the same result.

 

[Polymath257]

So you are admitting that your explanation could leave room for God, and in fact requires a uncaused cause?

I agree that if time is finite into the past, then there needs to be an uncaused cause. But, in actual fact, we know of *many* uncaused causes: most quantum events qualify.

Does my system 'leave room' for a deities or deities? Of course, although it depends on how you define the concept.

If you are proposing a creator God, then yes, there is room for such. It is possible that there is a race of high dimensional beings that has learned the technology of creating universes like ours. And perhaps our universe was a high school project for one of these beings. That high school student would then qualify as a creator God, right?

This is a *possibility*, but I don't find it likely, nor do I find any evidence to suggest this is the case.

Also, saying the moon is rising (or that the sun is rising) is actually a remnant from the old days of an Earth-centered universe. The sun and moon don't actually rise. *we* are moving, not them.

 

[Sheldon]

an astronaut on the moon can say the earth is rising because he sees everything revolve around him.

No, as with your previous post, one's relative perception of the movement of the earth and moon as "rising" is not real, as the moon orbits the earth due to gravity? Nothing is rising, if one says it is then they'd be simply wrong, as KWED explained.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree that if time is finite into the past, then there needs to be an uncaused cause. But, in actual fact, we know of *many* uncaused causes: most quantum events qualify.

Does my system 'leave room' for a deities or deities? Of course, although it depends on how you define the concept.

If you are proposing a creator God, then yes, there is room for such. It is possible that there is a race of high dimensional beings that has learned the technology of creating universes like ours. And perhaps our universe was a high school project for one of these beings. That high school student would then qualify as a creator God, right?

This is a *possibility*, but I don't find it likely, nor do I find any evidence to suggest this is the case.

Well, you are getting around to standard skepticism after all. You just have to learn it is unknown and there can't be assigned any actual probability because you run into Agrippa's Trilemma. And no amount of useful definitions will solve that.

 

[Polymath257]

If I am in deep deep space, not even a galaxy in sight. My spacecraft is flying foward in the darkness when I see an object
hurtle past me at great speed. WHO is moving, my vehicle, or this object? Should be a basic question using the rocket
equation and Newton's equations to 'prove' it is me who is moving - but is that right?
It's all down to the observer.
And an astronaut on the moon can say the earth is rising because he sees everything revolve around him.

And the point of relativity is that the notion of 'who is moving' does not have a fixed answer. it's sort of like asking what is the angle of a planet. You need a reference point. And that reference point is *arbitrary*.

In one reference frame, I am at rest. In *every* other reference frame, I am moving. In your scenario, it is *usually* best to take the center of mass frame where *both* you and the passing object are moving: that is the one that leads to the simplest calculations.

You also need to be very careful about the difference between inertial frames and non-inertial frames. Non-inertial frames will have 'virtual' forces like centrifugal and Coriolis forces that identify then as a poor choice of frame.