Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Polymath257]

Let's rephrase - if I am on the moon I watch 'Earth rise' and if I am on the Earth I watch 'moon rise'
Who is rising ?
Depends who you ask.

No, neither is rising. You are asking a failed question that makes an assumption that is false (that one or the other must be rising).

So our luna settler is suffering from hubris when he shows his children 'Earth Rise' ?

It's fun to watch the Earth appear from your perspective. That doens't make your perspective correct or even a reasonable position.

And the astronomer who says the galaxies are all flying AWAY from us suffers the same hubris?

We are limited to collect data from one vantage point. We *know* that is limited and will lead to misinformation, but we do our best.

We also know that the *apparent* motion is not actually motion, but rather the expansion of space.

No, human centric is just taking note of the OBSERVER EFFECT.
YOU and the Earth are the center of the universe because you see the heavens wheeling around you.

So it is the arbitrary selection of a reference frame?

Big Yawn.

In each of these far flung stars and planets they see YOU rotating around THEMSELVES.
No hubris needed.

Which is why NONE of them are 'true'. The reality is that none are revolving around any others.

 

[F1fan]

I am a Christian and like many other Christians I would not 'flock' to these charlatans. A 'prosperity Gospel' is not what
Jesus taught.

So what is your explanation fo why Christianity has become so toxic and anti-Christ. It is attracting many, many conservatives, so what went wrong?

And Peter warned of those who would 'make merchandise of you.' Jesus said 'Freely received, freely
given.' This means you ought not take your wallet to church.

Yet that is the model for Christianity. The whole thing is justified by demands for tithing, which is supposed to be 10% of believers giving to the church. Do you disagree?

 

[PruePhillip]

So what is your explanation fo why Christianity has become so toxic and anti-Christ. It is attracting many, many conservatives, so what went wrong?


Yet that is the model for Christianity. The whole thing is justified by demands for tithing, which is supposed to be 10% of believers giving to the church. Do you disagree?

What you call 'toxic' is the media's portrayal of religion. Never Muslim religion of course, but Christianity
is open for ridicule or scrutiny.

Tithing was a part of the Old Testament. By it Israel built its temple and paid for its Levitical priesthood.
There was to be no priesthood and no temple in the Christianity.
Also, tithing was a Jewish practice, like not eating pork or shell fish, and not carrying a mouth full of milk
on the Sabbath. Christians don't observe Jewish law. This Law (also called a Covenant) was firstly
composed of the Commandments, such as the prohibition on murder, stealing and adultery. Secondly,
there were the Ordinances, such as the Tabernacle, the Holy Days, the Levitical Offerings, and role of
the priesthood. And thirdly, there were the Judgements, covering legal issues such as slavery; taxation,
divorce and inheritance (with secondary issues such as diet, sanitation, military service and even
agricultural practices.)

 

[PruePhillip]

So it is the arbitrary selection of a reference frame?
Big Yawn..

It's not arbitary to me. I see the sun 'rise' and am happy with that. From orbit I see the earth revolve.
From above the galaxy I see a cometary vortex effect.

 

[Polymath257]

It's not arbitary to me. I see the sun 'rise' and am happy with that. From orbit I see the earth revolve.
From above the galaxy I see a cometary vortex effect.

Yes, you are an observer. You have consciousness.

So what?

 

[F1fan]

What you call 'toxic' is the media's portrayal of religion.

When did I ever cite the media? I'm making my judgment of Christianity on what I have witnessed myself. These pastors have no problem letting us know exactly who they are. I have seen the videos made by Pat Robertson and James Copeland, among others, myself, and this speaks as testimony itself about how toxic Christianity is today.

And you are implying that media as a resource is not reliable? Some is unreliable, so we have to be very scrutinizing about what media we access and rely on.

Never Muslim religion of course, but Christianity
is open for ridicule or scrutiny.

In the USA Christianity is the most prevalent religion. And Christian extremists are very hostile towards Muslins which I suspect has pressured them to keep a low profile for their own sake.

But do you think Christianity is off limits? We aren't seeing scrutiny of Christians to volunteer are food banks, we are seeing scrutiny of pastors who violate laws, like preaching political views in sermons, and who rake in massive amounts of money from manipulated followers. You acknowledge prosperity gospel, so you know exactly what I'm talking about, and you are being judgmental yourself. So is it that only Christians can scrutinize each other?

Tithing

was a part of the Old Testament. By it Israel built its temple and paid for its Levitical priesthood.
There was to be no priesthood and no temple in the Christianity.
Also, tithing was a Jewish practice, like not eating pork or shell fish, and not carrying a mouth full of milk
on the Sabbath. Christians don't observe Jewish law. This Law (also called a Covenant) was firstly
composed of the Commandments, such as the prohibition on murder, stealing and adultery. Secondly,
there were the Ordinances, such as the Tabernacle, the Holy Days, the Levitical Offerings, and role of
the priesthood. And thirdly, there were the Judgements, covering legal issues such as slavery; taxation,
divorce and inheritance (with secondary issues such as diet, sanitation, military service and even
agricultural practices.)

All of this is irrelevant since Christianity demands tithing. It may not demand 10% which would turn believers off, but they still do it. Have you never been in a Christian sermon where there was not a plate passed through the pews for donations? If not tithing what is it, panhandling?

And it's not as if Christianity doesn't cite the OT for any arbitrary issue that support or oppose. Anti-gay rhetoric comes straight out of Leviticus. The 10 Commandments are OT and highly valued by Christians, and even used as a symbol. So trying to distance the OT from Christianity is not a rational approach.

With some 44,000 sects under the umbrella of Christianity there is no true Christianity.

 

[Kenny]

Thank you for your input.

There are no conditions on how one prays. Prayer can be as simple as a thought.

Yes, it can be as simple as a thought. But as far as conditions, noticed what you said in the paragraph below, "as long as it does not interfere with your lessons or anyone else's lessons". In essence you have place "a condition".

Likewise, James put a condition " 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

Of course, my context is that of a Christian that trusts the word of God.

God will grant you anything as long as it does not interfere with your lessons or anyone else's lessons. This is inclusive with all God's children. One does not have to follow any religion to gain favors with God. Yes, even atheists are children of God regardless of any beliefs they might have.

YES!

All people are God's children. I had a post about the prodigal son being mankind with the Father being God waiting for His children to come back home.

But, regardless of whether you are a son in the house or eating with the pigs, the principles therein are still binding.

Do people and God have different goals?? People tend to want to have it made along with everything in the world their way. God is more concerned with what will lead the children forward along the path of Discovery, Knowledge, and Wisdom.

Agree totally with this point. But that isn't the subject matter that I have been sharing about

In conclusion, think very hard on what you actually want God to do for you. Be very careful because you might actually get what you are asking for.

It isn't what I want God to do for me as much as it is want "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heave".

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, now we got Jack, Just like you, age and all and he gets a fast moving degenerative neurological disease and is dead within years.

I am like you for my childhood in effect and I did it without religion. What you have done is to learn to cope including the use of religion.
What I have done is to learn to cope without religion. So yes, religion works up to a point, but you can do it without it and get the same result.

Certainly I am glad you were able to overcome. That is always something to rejoice with but to do the same is only up to a certain point. Certainly there is that which man can do (God created us to be that way) IMV.

But God can always do beyond what we can do no matter how much we try. Like He saved my marriage in 24 hours. Could have done in with a costly yearly counseling - but He did in in 24 hours and didn't send me a bill.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Only up to a certain point. Certainly there is that which man can do (God created us to be that way) IMV.

But God can always do beyond what we can do no matter how much we try. Like He fired my marriage in 24 hours. Could have done in with a costly yearly counseling - but He did in in 24 hours and didn't send me a bill.

Yeah, it worked for you, therefore it works for everybody else in same manner. But it also for me as how I did it, therefore it works for everybody else in same manner.
Do you see the problem now?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Also, saying the moon is rising (or that the sun is rising) is actually a remnant from the old days of an Earth-centered universe. The sun and moon don't actually rise. *we* are moving, not them

Where did that come from? I don't recall saying anything about the sun or moon rising.

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, it worked for you, therefore it works for everybody else in same manner. But it also for me as how I did it, therefore it works for everybody else in same manner.
Do you see the problem now?

I understand your point. But, I don't see how that detracts from the spiritual laws that work. If it worked for me, why wouldn't it work for someone else if they implement the same spiritual laws?

 

[Wildswanderer]

[Shrug] Ok. Illusion, then.
What ever you call it, you have misinterpreted or misunderstood sensory input at various times over the course of your life.

Which has nothing to do with hallucinating.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I understand your point. But, I don't see how that detracts from the spiritual laws that work. If it worked for me, why wouldn't it work for someone else if they implement the same spiritual laws?

Because there are other laws. I use other laws than you. So you could have done the same in reverse. You could have used the laws I used or I could used yours. Hence none of them are universal.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is where you run into a fundamental, insurmountable problem.
If you insist that an individual's "experience of god" is evidence that said god exists, then you have to accept the existence of every god/spirit that anyone has ever "experienced".
And as all those other gods exist, then your god is clearly dishonest or ignorant - in which case, why choose to believe its lies/nonsense and worship it?

Actually it's not a problem at all. Most religions have some truth, so when someone from another religion says they received a revelation, I don't totally discount it. I just know they haven't gotten the full revelation of God. Lots of religions worship nature. Why? Because they see Transcendence in nature. They aren't wrong, but what they are actually seeing it's just a reflection of God's Transcendence revealed in his creation.
The other thing that happens and you really have to watch out for, is the evil one posing as an angel of light. People have visions or hallucinations that come from the dark side and believe they are from God. This is another reason other religions miss the full truth, the evil one is corrupting what God meant for good. Now you can ask, why doesn't God just reveal himself in a way that they can't miss Him? Because this isn't heaven. People aren't unconditionally granted access to the holy of holies, they have to surrender to the real truth first. And because many would not believe anyway. Jesus said that even if someone came back from the dead many people would not believe. And that's exactly what happened...he did come back and many reject that truth. No, God isn't dishonest, on the contrary he just insists on an honest relationship and that takes two.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Actually it's not a problem at all. Most religions have some truth, so when someone from another religion says they received a revelation, I don't totally discount it. I just know they haven't gotten the full revelation of God. Lots of religions worship nature. Why? Because they see Transcendence in nature. They aren't wrong, but what they are actually seeing it's just a reflection of God's Transcendence revealed in his creation.
The other thing that happens and you really have to watch out for, is the evil one posing as an angel of light. People have visions or hallucinations that come from the dark side and believe they are from God. This is another reason other religions miss the full truth, the evil one is corrupting what God meant for good. Now you can ask, why doesn't God just reveal himself in a way that they can't miss Him? Because this isn't heaven. People aren't unconditionally granted access to the holy of holies, they have to surrender to the real truth first. And because many would not believe anyway. Jesus said that even if someone came back from the dead many people would not believe. And that's exactly what happened...he did come back and many reject that truth. No, God isn't dishonest, on the contrary he just insists on an honest relationship and that takes two.

Yeah, the real truth. Well if your version works for you, then good for you. But I still do it differently.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yeah, start here and tell me which version is true:
Truth | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Truth is a person. It's not a vague concept. Jesus said he was the Truth.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What is the practical difference between a person not succumbing to those influences, and succumbing to them without realising it?

Um... everything. Those are opposites.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you haven't succumbed to any influence?

In what aspect of life? The question in the free will discussion is: do we have to every time? If I choose pizza because my kid wants pizza even though I want a sub, I have given in to his influence, but in that case it might be a very good unselfish thing to do. But if someone wants me to harm another person, say because of mob mentality, I can exercise my free will to say no, and not succumb to that bad influence.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Truth is a person. It's not a vague concept. Jesus said he was the Truth.

Yeah and I still do it differently than you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Interesting, because "wind" isn't an actual thing. It is simply an effect caused by something else.
So according to Jesus, the "Holy Spirit" isn't an actual thing, it is just an effect caused by something else - an electro-chemical imbalance in the brain, perhaps?

No, he was saying that we see the effect: the "wind", because the Spirit is real.