Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Wildswanderer]

Yeah and I still do it differently than you.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have no idea what that means.

I don't the real truth like you do it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Cool. Explain how we objectively test for a spiritual realm. A test that is repeatable by anyone, regardless of their position on the issue, and will produce the same results.

You just claimed that it can be tested. Now you admit it can't.
Make your mind up.

Science isn't everything. You can't scientifically prove that science can test everything accurately. If there's a reality outside of science then science obviously can't test it. The way to test it is to do what scripture says and see the results. But sometimes it has physical aspects. When God gives you something that's highly unlikely to have been a coincidence for example. Just a couple weeks ago, God gave us a $1500 bumper for a vehicle for $60. Why do I think God was involved? Because the chance of that bumper just happening to be at the place where we went to get something else entirely was slim to none. It's a very rare part for a very rare vehicle. God just does things like that sometimes to strengthen our faith.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I don't the real truth like you do it.

That's a sentence fragment, so I still don't know what you mean.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's a sentence fragment, so I still don't know what you mean.

Yeah, here is a better one. I don't do the real truth like you do it. I.e. the real truth is not the same to me as it is to you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

1. Do you believe that your god infallibly knows everything you will do in the future?
2. Do you believe that you can do something that god does not know you will do?

No, but knowing isn't causing. It's still my choice and every other choice still exists as possible.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yeah, here is a better one. I don't do the real truth like you do it. I.e. the real truth is not the same to me as it is to you.

Truth isn't negotiable. There's no "your truth" and "my truth." That impossible. Two opposite things can't both be true.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Truth isn't negotiable. There's no "your truth" and "my truth." That impossible. Two opposite things can't both be true.

You don't understand the limit of the law of non-contradiction.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You really need to try and understand that most religionists do not experience miraculous visions. I have never met one irl who claims to have done. Belief usually comes through childhood indoctrination and cultural assimilation. In fact, many people who identify as belonging to a religion do not actually consider themselves religious.
This was perfectly illustrated after the last census. A question on the form said "What religion are you?" and provided a list to select from. Over 60% of people chose one of the religions. However, when the same people were asked the follow-up question "Are you religious?", over 60% responded "no". How do you explain that if, as you claim, 96% of them have "experienced god"?

Because people mean different things by saying they are not religious. Mostly they mean they don't regularly attend services or do certain rituals. That doesn't mean they don't pray... and prayer by definition is a conversation with a deity. That's not miraculous? Your problem is thinking that everything has to be visions. There's lots of more ordinary ways to experience supernatural.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You don't understand the limit of the law of non-contradiction.

Do you think embracing contradictions makes any sense? I don't.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you think embracing contradictions makes any sense? I don't.

No, I am saying that contradictions are cognitive and maybe don't apply to objective reality as you believe.

 

[Wildswanderer]

How can you "try to be" something like that? Either the argument/evidence is convincing or it isn't.

And ultimately is wasn't convincing enough, once I really understood it.

 

[F1fan]

I understand your point. But, I don't see how that detracts from the spiritual laws that work.

Are these real or imaginary spiritual laws? If you say they are real, can you show us they are real and not in your imagination?

If it worked for me, why wouldn't it work for someone else if they implement the same spiritual laws?

Couldn't it just be all you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

lol!
It means that your objection to a "universe" (or the material it is composed of) that "just exists" can be dismissed.

If the alternatives are
1. A "universe" that just exists.
or
2. A universe that exists because a god that just exists created it by magic
Then 1 is clearly the more reasonable.

Why? Neither can be explained by science. So both logically require miracles.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Also, we understand the natural processes that formed the world. No need for magic)

Only you don't know how it started. Or why there are physical laws at all. Or why there is something instead of nothing. And on and on and on.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Only you don't know how it started. Or why there are physical laws at all. Or why there is something instead of nothing. And on and on and on.

For there doesn't follow your God.

X is not Y, therefore X is Z is an invalid deduction, but you should know that since you understand logic.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Are you claiming bachelors can't get married? Your endless use of such straw men, just indicates how irrational your arguments are.

Obviously I was pointing to your lack of evidence for the start of everything that exists. Because you have none.
Uncaused causes are a problem in a atheist's universe... they can't exist.

 

[Wildswanderer]

For there doesn't follow your God.

X is not Y, therefore X is Z is an invalid deduction, but you should know that since you understand logic.

It certainly follows that something has to pre-exist the Big bang though. Or someone.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It certainly follows that something has to pre-exist the Big bang though. Or someone.

And something before that and so on. It is called an infinite regress. Learn Agrippa's Trilemma.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And something before that and so on. It is called an infinite regress. Learn Agrippa's Trilemma.

Which is pretty good evidence that someone has to be eternal for us to even be here. And why it's so amusing when atheists try to appeal to aliens putting us here. As if that solves the problem.