Doubt?

[BucephalusBB]

I never considered those last moments before a person dies. I am not sure one can call it doubt (of atheism) if a person right before an accident screams "Oh, God!" When I started the thread I was thinking more along the lines during normal everyday thinking.

I feel I must comment here about the "Oh, God". Whenever you hear a "Oh God", "OMG" or the cursing kind this can also be meaningless expressions, just because they are so known. I wouldn't even know an equal that sounds just as nice as OMG!!! (No, the OMS won't do, sounds all different.)

Ofcourse by S-words definition, me using OMG would mean I have doubts..

 

[whereismynotecard]

If you say the word "God" it means you think you might believe in him. Sometimes I say "Jesus Christ! This lady drives like a snail! Oh my god! I'm going to be here all day waiting on this lady to turn!" Those are prayers, because they mention God and Jesus, and that means I am doubting my atheism. A lady driving slowly on the highway makes me question my religious beliefs.

Is this thread the "tell atheists what they believe and what they would do in certain situations thread" now?

 

[S-word]

I feel I must comment here about the "Oh, God". Whenever you hear a "Oh God", "OMG" or the cursing kind this can also be meaningless expressions, just because they are so known. I wouldn't even know an equal that sounds just as nice as OMG!!! (No, the OMS won't do, sounds all different.)

Ofcourse by S-words definition, me using OMG would mean I have doubts..

Good try mate, but twisting and distorting my words don't work. Everyone who reads my posts know that Post 8, states that I believe the Atheist would say one little prayer before hitting the ground, Not "OH my God," or "Jesus Christ my shute didn't open." I said that I believed that they would say a little prayer.
In post 41, I stated that I believed if the canopy hadn't opened, the Athiest in question would have cried out, OOOH my goooood hhheeeelllllpppp meeeeeee, not your twisted version of my words, Not "OMG," or Jessus Bl--dy Christ, but a little prayer for help.

Post 45, I stated that I believed a little prayer would flash through the mind of the Atheist who was staring death in the face; again, not "OMG' or "Jesus Bl--dy Christ . So where do you get off by saying that according to my defination, 'You saying "OMG" means that you have doubts?'
Now you, who are but one of millions who claim to be Atheist, say that you would not say a little pray even in the face of certain death, one day you will discover whether or not your claim is correct, but for now, you can only speak for yourself, you cannot speak for the other 99.9%, who I believe would say a little pray on the day that they are forced to stare death in the face, or are forced to watch their loved one die in agony.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Good try mate, but twisting and distorting my words don't work. Everyone who reads my posts know that Post 8, states that I believe the Atheist would say one little prayer before hitting the ground, Not "OH my God," or "Jesus Christ my shute didn't open." I said that I believed that they would say a little prayer.
In post 41, I stated that I believed if the canopy hadn't opened, the Athiest in question would have cried out, OOOH my goooood hhheeeelllllpppp meeeeeee, not your twisted version of my words, Not "OMG," or Jessus Bl--dy Christ, but a little prayer for help.

Post 45, I stated that I believed a little prayer would flash through the mind of the Atheist who was staring death in the face; again, not "OMG' or "Jesus Bl--dy Christ . So where do you get off by saying that according to my defination, 'You saying "OMG" means that you have doubts?'
Now you, who are but one of millions who claim to be Atheist, say that you would not say a little pray even in the face of certain death, one day you will discover whether or not your claim is correct, but for now, you can only speak for yourself, you cannot speak for the other 99.9%, who I believe would say a little pray on the day that they are forced to stare death in the face, or are force to watch their loved one die in agony.

Ok, I would like to start by apologizing for asuming too much.
Then you never really answered any of my questions. You just replyed again with thinking atheists would say the prayer. No offense, but as you are theist, thinking that the opposite of you (the atheist) would do the thing a theist would do holds absolutelly no value! Not only do you just not know, but you cannot even imagine AND you are suggesting the atheist to become like the theist. Without backup that makes completelly no sense. The only thing it will help is you convicing yourself that every atheist is lying a bit to themselves. Or doubt or whatever.

And next, I do not claim to be atheist. Others claim that I am atheist. When I read the description of atheist, I cannot disagree. There is no way in the world, that you can know what an atheist feels when it comes to not believing in God. So keep telling yourself the opposite.. :sarcastic

Also, I really realize I cannot speak for any other atheist. I do think though, that my thoughts come closer to the avarage atheist than yours and thus by expressing my own thoughts come closer to the avarage atheist than you.

And now, finally, I would really like you to explain to me what I would pray as I wasn't lying when I said I never prayed on my own besides reading a text out loud, wich I never remembered by the way..

 

[S-word]

If you say the word "God" it means you think you might believe in him. Sometimes I say "Jesus Christ! This lady drives like a snail! Oh my god! I'm going to be here all day waiting on this lady to turn!" Those are prayers, because they mention God and Jesus, and that means I am doubting my atheism. A lady driving slowly on the highway makes me question my religious beliefs.

Is this thread the "tell atheists what they believe and what they would do in certain situations thread" now?

No my friend, you may use the word god a million times, and you can use the name Jesus Christ as an expletive, as many times as you like, and it does not mean that you are doubting your Atheism, and nowhere have I said that it would, irrelevant to what those who would twist and distort my words claim.

But if you have ever said, or ever will say in the future, one little prayer to God, then you are doubting your atheism. You can lie to everyone else and say that you have never doubted your atheism, but how do you live with 'Who You Are' when you lie to yourself?

I believe that every person, irrelevant to the belief that they cling to, if they are honest to themself, will admit that there have been times in their life, when they have, even if, for only a fleeting moment, doubted their belief. You may agree or disagree, but this is my opinion.

 

[BucephalusBB]

O, and I too do not know what everybody in the world would say in the air before they die, just like you..
Let's just say that when that times comes, not only do I think I would not direct anything to God, but I also hope I wouldn't spend my last few seconds talking to something I will see after death anyway. That is, if you are right and I am wrong

I believe that every person, irrelevant to the belief that they cling to, if they are honest to themself, will admit that there have been times in their life, when they have, even if, for only a fleeting moment, doubted their belief. You may agree or disagree, but this is my opinion.

I do disagree as it is not an opinion, it's a guess..


Ow S-word.. Do you think it will also work the other way around? That when a theist is falling from the sky, he completelly ignores God as he's got a moment that it won't work anyway?

 

[S-word]

Ok, I would like to start by apologizing for asuming too much.

Then you never really answered any of my questions. You just replyed again with thinking atheists would say the prayer. No offense, but as you are theist, thinking that the opposite of you (the atheist) would do the thing a theist would do holds absolutelly no value! Not only do you just not know, but you cannot even imagine AND you are suggesting the atheist to become like the theist. Without backup that makes completelly no sense. The only thing it will help is you convicing yourself that every atheist is lying a bit to themselves. Or doubt or whatever.

And next, I do not claim to be atheist. Others claim that I am atheist. When I read the description of atheist, I cannot disagree. There is no way in the world, that you can know what an atheist feels when it comes to not believing in God. So keep telling yourself the opposite.. :sarcastic

Also, I really realize I cannot speak for any other atheist. I do think though, that my thoughts come closer to the avarage atheist than yours and thus by expressing my own thoughts come closer to the avarage atheist than you.

And now, finally, I would really like you to explain to me what I would pray as I wasn't lying when I said I never prayed on my own besides reading a text out loud, wich I never remembered by the way..

Please do not say that I would not have a clue as to how an Atheist thinks. I who am a Theist was once an Atheist who doubted his Atheism, and went looking for the answers to prove once and for all if there is, or is not, a life force which pervades the entire universal body, in which living body, that life force has developed an overall intellect.
I would really like you to explain to me what I would pray
You only have to say in your Heart, when observing the sufferings of a loved one, "If there Is a God, please help this person and ease their pain," and you have shown that you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there may be some power somewhere, who can somehow intervene in the natural course of events.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Please do not say that I would not have a clue as to how an Atheist thinks. I who am a Theist was once an Atheist who doubted his Atheism, and went looking for the answers to prove once and for all if there is, or is not, a life force which pervades the entire universal body, in which living body, that life force has developed an overall intellect.

So you claim you were atheist and became theist? And then you tell us that every atheist has his moments of doubt? Pretty obvious don't you think? Again reflecting the atheist to yourself. I cannot blame you as I do pretty much the same. But we are not talking about converted atheists here, but about atheists..

I would really like you to explain to me what I would pray

You only have to say in your Heart, when observing the sufferings of a loved one, "If there Is a God, please help this person and ease their pain," and you have shown that you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there may be some power somewhere, who can somehow intervene in the natural course of events.

O don't do that.. My heart has no mouth and cannot speak.
If asking there is a God, there must indeed be a reason. I completelly agree. Asuming everybody does is something totally different though..

 

[S-word]

O, and I too do not know what everybody in the world would say in the air before they die, just like you..

Let's just say that when that times comes, not only do I think I would not direct anything to God, but I also hope I wouldn't spend my last few seconds talking to something I will see after death anyway. That is, if you are right and I am wrong



I do disagree as it is not an opinion, it's a guess..


Ow S-word.. Do you think it will also work the other way around? That when a theist is falling from the sky, he completelly ignores God as he's got a moment that it won't work anyway?

No my friend, I have said that it my belief that every person, irrelevant as to their belief, have at some point in their life, had doubts concerning their position.
It is you who seem to think that no Atheist has ever entertained the belief sometime in their life, that perhaps, just perhaps, there may be a god who Is omnificent. "All creative," Omni-present, "immanent in all that exists." Omni-potent, "Having all authority," Omni-scient, "Knowing all that can be known," etc.

 

[BucephalusBB]

No my friend, I have said that it my belief that every person, irrelevant as to their belief, have at some point in their life, had doubts concerning their position.
It is you who seem to think that no Atheist has ever entertained the belief sometime in their life, that perhaps, just perhaps, there may be a god who Is omnificent. "All creative," Omni-present, "immanent in all that exists." Omni-potent, "Having all authority," Omni-scient, "Knowing all that can be known," etc.

Nope, I think most atheists had such a moment. But I do think there are many who never had such a moment and never will..

Also, I do think almost every atheist had change in thoughts. But that does not mean it has to be towards theism. That is something else though.

 

[S-word]

[/COLOR]
So you claim you were atheist and became theist? And then you tell us that every atheist has his moments of doubt? Pretty obvious don't you think? Again reflecting the atheist to yourself. I cannot blame you as I do pretty much the same. But we are not talking about converted atheists here, but about atheists..


O don't do that.. My heart has no mouth and cannot speak.
If asking there is a God, there must indeed be a reason. I completelly agree. Asuming everybody does is something totally different though..

Quote..you tell us that every atheist has his moments of doubt?
No, I said that that I believe that all people of every persuasion, has their moment of Doubt, it is you who seem to think that no Atheist would every for one moment doubt the non-existence of a superior intellect that has developed and imprinted on the eternal life that has become all that exists.
Quote....My heart has no mouth and cannot speak.
You didn't have to tell us that, I'm sure that everyone reading this Thread, knows that you cannot speak from the Heart.

 

[BucephalusBB]

No, I said that that I believe that all people of every persuasion, has their moment of Doubt, it is you who seem to think that no Atheist would every for one moment doubt the non-existence of a superior intellect that has developed and imprinted on the eternal life that has become all that exists.

Nope, I think most atheists had such a moment. But I do think there are many who never had such a moment and never will..

You think everybody has doubt towards the opposite. I think not everybody has doubt towards the opposite.
I don't think any of us will change in that.

My heart has no mouth and cannot speak.

You didn't have to tell us that, I'm sure that everyone reading this Thread, knows that you cannot speak from the Heart.

Wait a minute.. Was this meant as an insult? Because I always thought there wasn't a heart in the world that could speak.
No really btw.. let's continue on this route.. What I asume, and I cannot do more than that, is that by "speaking with your heart" you actually mean, acting according to (probably your version of) morals. Is that speaking with your heart? Or is it doing what you think is right according to your own morals? Or is it thinking that wich seems obvious to you?

 

[S-word]

Nope, I think most atheists had such a moment. But I do think there are many who never had such a moment and never will..

Also, I do think almost every atheist had change in thoughts. But that does not mean it has to be towards theism. That is something else though.

Having admitted that you believe that most Atheist have had such a moment of doubt, do you include yourself amongst that majority and if so, have you admitted that to ChristineES, whose original question was "Has any Atheist ever had a moment of doubt concerning their belief?"

 

[BucephalusBB]

Having admitted that you believe that most Atheist have had such a moment of doubt, do you include yourself amongst that majority and if so, have you admitted that to ChristineES, whose original question was "Has any Atheist ever had a moment of doubt concerning their belief?"

Post #5

I am stuffed with "what if"s..
But as I have never "felt" God before, for me to change to theist would mean a change in my theories. So far the changes in my theories have not let me towards theism.

I have never done a little prayer towards God if that's what you want to know. I don't think I ever will, but I won't say that I know that. I am one of those atheist that might fall into the catagory you underlined, bolded and made italic..

So, are you going to use me as example now that if even I am one of those, why not all the rest? Don't worry, my answer is a guess, just like yours. Like I said, we are quite in the middle right now..

 

[linwood]

Essentially the question is..

"Have I ever for a moment believed it is possible that an all powerful, unknowable, all-knowing, sentient, supernatural, ever-present, being who is capable of creating matter, defying every and any known physical/material restriction which it created itself , while inhabiting every single vantage point in the cosmos at the same time actually exists?"

The answer is no.

I`ve never had that moment of possible belief any more than I`ve ever had a moment of belief that the Easter bunny is really hopping around somewhere painting eggs and making chocolates preparing to deliver them around the world in a single day.

When you throw in any and/or all of the ridiculous properties of any particular god as defined by any of the multitude of human religious texts the idea becomes more preposterous by a multitude of factors.

I don`t see why this is so hard to accept.

 

[S-word]

Essentially the question is..

"Have I ever for a moment believed it is possible that an all powerful, unknowable, all-knowing, sentient, supernatural, ever-present, being who is capable of creating matter, defying every and any known physical/material restriction which it created itself , while inhabiting every single vantage point in the cosmos at the same time actually exists?"

The answer is no.

I`ve never had that moment of possible belief any more than I`ve ever had a moment of belief that the Easter bunny is really hopping around somewhere painting eggs and making chocolates preparing to deliver them around the world in a single day.

When you throw in any and/or all of the ridiculous properties of any particular god as defined by any of the multitude of human religious texts the idea becomes more preposterous by a multitude of factors.

I don`t see why this is so hard to accept.

But do you believe that the Cosmos is a living entity and that all things within that living entity are governed by the absolute laws of physics and do you believe that there is an animating force that pervades the entire Cosmic body, animating all that is?

Do you believe that the Living Cosmic body developed the intellectual species that has the capability of comprehending the invisible mind that is he, who is most high known and visible life form in the living Cosmos, and that he, the most high, has gained dominion over all creatures that preceded him and is therefore Lord of Creatures?

Do you believe in the evolution of the species in the ever evolving body of the living Cosmos, and if so, do you think for one moment that mankind, who evolved from the creatures to which he is now the Lord and Most High, is the end of the evolution, and that there might not possibly be another life form that evolves from man "The Son Of Man," who is perhaps not a being of corruptible matter, but a being in a body of incorruptible light which will dwell on earth among mankind and gain dominion over all that had preceded him who will be the most High in the Cosmos and Lord of all?

Could you possibly believe that one day the living Cosmic body in its eternal process of slow and gradual growth and change, may develop a species that is able to transport itself, not only across the seemingly endless space, but also time, and that he could have descended in the previous world in this eternal oscillating universal body, and passed over into the beginning of this cycle of universal activity which is destined to come to its end when the heavens will roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise, and the universal elements will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Black Hole where all that exists, will be once more condensed into the infinitely dense and infinitely hot, Infinitesimally small primordial atom from which this universal body originated and from where, the resurrection of this world will blast forth one day in time to continue on its eternal process of growth and change?

 

[blackout]

Doubt is a powerless place to live from.

Whatever I do, or choose to believe,
in any given moment...
I want... I STRIVE... to OWN IT.

Though I know *my terms* are my folly.

It does not matter.
I suspend my disbelief for the sake of an experience
or a reality shift... a change in direction... a glowing empowerment.

I call it Majik.
Sometimes I will to call it
*the living sentient UniVerse*
...gOd... or even 'me'.
It is the power inherent in ALL things...
to change form.
And I believe "in it".

You may call it whatever you like.

Our 'terms' are always our own folly.

 

[linwood]

But do you believe that the Cosmos is a living entity and that all things within that living entity are governed by the absolute laws of physics

No, I do not believe the entirety of the cosmos is a "living entity".
I do believe all things withing the cosmos are governed by the laws of physics.

and do you believe that there is an animating force that pervades the entire Cosmic body, animating all that is?

No, this I do not believe.

Do you believe that the Living Cosmic body developed the intellectual species that has the capability of comprehending the invisible mind that is he, who is most high known and visible life form in the living Cosmos, and that he, the most high, has gained dominion over all creatures that preceded him and is therefore Lord of Creatures?

Nope, don`t believe it.

Do you believe in the evolution of the species in the ever evolving body of the living Cosmos, and if so, do you think for one moment that mankind, who evolved from the creatures to which he is now the Lord and Most High, is the end of the evolution, and that there might not possibly be another life form that evolves from man "The Son Of Man," who is perhaps not a being of corruptible matter, but a being in a body of incorruptible light which will dwell on earth among mankind and gain dominion over all that had preceded him who will be the most High in the Cosmos and Lord of all?

No, this I do not believe.

Could you possibly believe that one day the living Cosmic body in its eternal process of slow and gradual growth and change, may develop a species that is able to transport itself, not only across the seemingly endless space, but also time, and that he could have descended in the previous world in this eternal oscillating universal body, and passed over into the beginning of this cycle of universal activity which is destined to come to its end when the heavens will roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise, and the universal elements will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Black Hole where all that exists, will be once more condensed into the infinitely dense and infinitely hot, Infinitesimally small primordial atom from which this universal body originated and from where, the resurrection of this world will blast forth one day in time to continue on its eternal process of growth and change?

No, this I do not believe

Doubt is a powerless place to live from.

Whatever I do, or choose to believe,
in any given moment...
I want... I STRIVE... to OWN IT.

Though I know *my terms* are my folly.

It does not matter.
I suspend my disbelief for the sake of an experience
or a reality shift... a change in direction... a glowing empowerment.

This is closer to what I believe.
The suspension of disbelief makes "fun" and understanding so much more accessible.

I call it Majik.

You may call it whatever you like.

Our 'terms' are always our own folly.

They are indeed.

They may be the only thing that has in the past separated me from those whose terms I misunderstood.

That is folly I don`t want to repeat.

 

[Imagist]

I had my periods of doubt when I first became an atheist, but I think these were mainly psychosomatic reactions to fears of hell that I hadn't quite worked through. I haven't had such doubts in years.

 

[S-word]

Quote: No, I do not believe the entirety of the cosmos is a "living entity".
I do believe all things withing the cosmos are governed by the laws of physics.

Q. Do you believe that there is an animating force that pervades the entire Cosmic body, activating all that is?
A. No, this I do not believe.

Knowing that a rock is an animated thing, being no more that a conglomeration of Molecules which are but atoms that have been gathered into shapes that we see as building blocks in the creation of all things, which atoms are no more than gatherings of animated subatomic particles etc, you still claim that there is no universal force inherent in all things which animates all that is? Well I don’t believe you.

Q. Do you believe that the Living Cosmic body developed the intellectual species that has the capability of comprehending the invisible mind that is he, who is most high known and visible life form in the living Cosmos, and that he, the most high in the creation, has gained dominion over all creatures that preceded him and is therefore Lord of Creatures?
A. Nope, don`t believe it.

If it were possible to take a photo of the earth as it was forming from the condensing cloud of elements that has become our sun and take another photo every one million years, then run all the frames together as a moving picture, you would see the living earth as it produced the first primitive plants, and watch as those innumerable developing life forms change over time, to be seen as the complex array of life forms which occupy mother earth today, which life forms include Mankind, the Most High of all those creature, and the only known species that has the capability of comprehending the invisible mind that has developed within that body.
This applies to the universal body also, if you were to take a photo at the instant when the origin of all that is this universal body that had been condensed into the infinitely dense and infinitely hot, infinitesimally small primordial atom, burst forth with a Big Bang, then take subsequent photos every hundred million years or so; you would watch as the moving frames reveal the myriads of life forms, grow from and within that living universal body. That is of course unless you are one of those naive people who believe that physical life forms have developed only upon this earth.

And yet still, you don’t believe that the animated universal body is a living entity.

Well I cannot agree with you: for I believe that the swirling boundless cloud of shimmering ever changing patterns of invisible wave Particles, is the mind that is God, who manifests himself as the visible Cosmos, through the physical senses of this conglomeration of wave particles that is the body in which “I” the invisible mind, who is a potential child of the Living mind that is God, is developing.